[NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations

Mon Jul 3 05:45:06 AKDT 2006

Am I missing something here?  Those just don't look like snap rolls to me!

G
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Woodward" <jim.woodward at schroth.com>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations

> Hi Guys,
>
> http://www.aircraftstudiodesign.com/pittspython/gallery.php
>
> Regarding snaps, take a look at this video page of the new Pitts bi-plane.
> There are links to a "vertical snap" video, and a "double snap" on take 
> off
> video.  The angle of each video is great.  The pilot is kind enough to 
> have
> the smoke on during the takeoff snaps.  These videos just demonstrate to 
> me
> that the model community is getting way too picky in trying to state that
> the plane must do "x" before it does "y" to receive max points.  In a
> practical sense the closer the pilot is to getting a 10 or
> "maintaining-track" during a snap, the closer he is to getting a zero or 
> at
> least severely downgraded, primarily because the judges are instructed to
> look for an over exaggerated criteria of "pitch-break" first.  The loop of
> pilot control input, plane's reaction, and judge perception (or grading of
> maneuver observation based on this staggered snap judging criteria), is
> different for each skill level of pilot and skill level of judge.  Also, 
> the
> judging criteria seems to lock in a particular single sequence of
> transmitter usage (IE, elevator first then other inputs). Does that mean
> that any pilot that uses a snap button - which inputs all control inputs 
> at
> once, automatically receives a severe downgrade?  Should there be a rule 
> to
> outlaw snap buttons?  Also, the faster the pilot can input the elevator 
> then
> other controls, correspondingly reduces the effect the judges are 
> instructed
> to look for (IE, pitch break first). Also, there seems to be a belief by
> some that you cannot perform a good snap roll without deviating the line -
> (IE, someone states "...I know it was a snap because you had to correct 
> the
> line afterward).  Thus, to my reading, there exists conflicting
> judging/scoring criteria for this maneuver.  What is also neglected in the
> current definition is that where it states 'speed of the snap is not a
> judging criteria' (seemingly intented to protect folks who want to perform 
> a
> docile slowly rotating snap) however - judges are quick to say - "...pilot
> uses is too much aileron".  Is 45 degrees of aileron throw too much?
>
> I personally like what has happened to clarify the spins and hope a 
> similar
> approach can be taken or is underway with the snap definition.  My opinion
> has changed a bit on this particular topic as I started flying sequences
> that require more of these maneuvers to be done.  If you spend a lot of 
> time
> practicing them on straight lines, 45s, and looping maneuver (avalanches),
> the conversation quickly moves from theoretical to practical.  The snaps 
> in
> these two video links would be severally downgraded or zeroed according to
> the precision aerobatics definitions.  Food for thought.  Not about me, 
> just
> about the snap definition and critera.
>
> Thanks,
> Jim W.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:27 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>
> A slow roll is acceptable.
>
> DR
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ed Miller" <edbon85 at charter.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>
>
>> Concerning the Master schedule 1/2 loop with full roll out.  Is a slow
>> roll
>> acceptable on the full roll out or must it be a fast axial roll ??
>> Ed M.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Don Ramsey" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>
>>
>>> Adam,
>>>
>>> 404-2:    The stall turn must be in the direction of flight.
>>> 404-7:    The humpty is defined as 1/4 roll up and 3/4 roll down. 
>>> That's
>>> 3/4 down and not 3 of 4.
>>> 404-12:  Slow roll should be a minimum of 3 seconds
>>> 404-18:  AMA rule on snaps is on page 78 of the rulebook.  You can get 
>>> to
>>> the rulebook through the judging site where the Powerpoint presentations
>>> are
>>> found.  But in a nutshell:
>>> 1. Since the maneuver is defined as a stall maneuver (initiated by a
>>> rapid
>>> stall of the wing induced by a change in pitch attitude), the nose of 
>>> the
>>> fuselage should show a definite break from the flight path in the
>>> direction
>>> of the snap (positive or negative) while the track closely maintains the
>>> flight path. The track visualized as the path of the Center of Gravity
>>> (CG)
>>> should ideally follow the geometric flight path of the maneuver while 
>>> the
>>> nose and tail autorotate through opposite helical arcs around the flight
>>> path. A snap  that does not show a break and stall to initiate the snap,
>>> but
>>> does enter a stalled attitude during the maneuver is severely 
>>> downgraded.
>>>
>>> So
>>> * lack of a definite break of the nose is not a zero but severe 
>>> downgrade
>>> * track of CG should ideally follow the geometry of the maneuver for max
>>> points
>>> Other Points:
>>> * Barrel roll or axial roll is a zero
>>> * Speed of snap is not a judging criteria
>>> * Airspeed may decrease in the snap with no downgrade
>>> * If model is roll to a finish the downgrade is applied using 1 pt per 
>>> 15
>>> degree rule.
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Adam Glatt" <adam.g at sasktel.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:29 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] PowerPoint Presentations
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good stuff, Don.  These are very helpful for learning a schedule that
>>>> you don't fly.
>>>>
>>>> I have a few questions about judging Masters that I recommend should be
>>>> answered on the presentation.
>>>>
>>>> 404-2:  Does the stall turn itself have to rotate in the upwind
>>>> direction?
>>>> 404-7:  There seems to be an option here, but 2of2 has the same name as
>>>> 1of2, though the Arrestis are different.
>>>> 404-12:  What is the rule book definition of 'slow?'
>>>> 404-18:  The rulebook definition/description of a snap?
>>>>
>>>> -Adam
>>>>
>>>> Don Ramsey wrote:
>>>>> For those who may be judging Advanced, Masters, P-07 and especially
>>>>> F3A wednesday judges for F-07 there are PowerPoint presentations on
>>>>> the NSRCA judging page
>>>>> http://www.nsrca.org/competition/judging/judging.htm.  Look for the
>>>>> link near the bottom of the Judging Home Page.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
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