[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction, correct terms

Mon Aug 14 10:55:21 AKDT 2006

Wow. All this time I thought the "crap angle" was due to the wind causing the porta-johns at a contest to lean.

  Bob R.

Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com> wrote:
  The crab angle is the relationship between the flight
path and fuselage heading in a crosswind situation.
The crap angle is what happens when you don't correct
for the crab angle when pulling or pushing into the
next manuever segment. I am somewhat of an expert in
demnstrating the crap angle effect. ;)

--- John Konneker wrote:

> John,
> Holy smoke!!!!!!!!!!
> I think the light bulb is coming on.
> When you said roll into the wind I thought
> "What"!!!!!
> I have a little airplane shaped calendar thingy here
> on the desk.
> What the heck...
> I picked it up and hand flew it into a loop with a
> crap angle away from me 
> going right to left and rolled it a little right as
> I pulled up.
> I can see what you're talking about!!!
> JLK
> 
> 
> >From: John Pavlick 
> >To: jlkonn at hotmail.com
> >CC: jpavlick at idseng.com
> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >John,
> > There's no crying in Pattern! I hear what
> you're saying. That was me a 
> >few years ago. Here's and easy way to sort this
> out: Roll into the wind. 
> >Does that make sense? Here's an example: Flying
> from your right to your 
> >left, with the wind blowing in (in your face), the
> plane will be crabbed 
> >out with a right yaw attitude. When you pull UP
> elevator for the looping 
> >segment, roll right. If you're going in the other
> direction, of course the 
> >roll direction is reversed as well. Practice this
> until you start to see 
> >things cleaning up. What you're looking for is the
> wings perfectly aligned 
> >(in the roll axis NOT necessarily the yaw axis) to
> the track of the loop on 
> >the vertical points. When you get it down, remember
> to enter and exit with 
> >your wings level. This will take some more practice
> but you'll get it. 
> >You'll be scoring 10's on those 2 loops in no time!
> >
> > John Pavlick
> > http://www.idseng.com
> >
> >John Konneker wrote:
> > Dean, Adam and all,
> >Thanks for the great replies.
> >Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by
> "the plane of the plane
> >staying square to the plane of the flightline"...I
> think!
> >I can see that one attempt to correct the problem
> only results in another.
> >To be specific flying Sportsman. Takeoff direction
> from left to right. I
> >have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and
> I am making a ground
> >track correction on the Straight Flight Back with
> rudder. This yaws the
> >nose into the crosswind blowing in my face. I am
> approaching the downwind
> >end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to
> the looping portion of my
> >Cuban Eight.
> >If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I
> loop over the top the nose
> >is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind.
> I can see I am really
> >beginning to suck dishwater now! I have a big
> heading error to correct and
> >it won't be very pretty. I am visualizing the
> problem, and experienced it
> >over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized
> the solution.
> >Like I said...I could have just sat down on the
> edge of the runway and
> >cried!
> >JLK
> >
> >
> > >From: "Dean Pappas"
> > >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> > >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400
> > >
> > >Hi John,
> > >I have long struggled to find a good way to
> explain this, in print.
> > >If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the
> plane of the plane 
> >staying
> > >square to the plane of the flightline", it may
> help. Maybe it won't!
> > >A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.
> > >
> > >Even from crabbed level flight, or a properly
> crabbed vertical, any time
> > >the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn
> into unwanted
> > >wings-not-square
> > >and the direction of the resulting turn will
> always be downwind! Adam's
> > >suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion
> times.
> > >Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads
> of rudder to fly in a
> > >crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.
> > >Airspeed (or at least having it available on
> demand) is your friend in a
> > >crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to
> fly the airplane
> > >uncross-controlled as much as possible.
> Eventually, you will use very 
> >very
> > >small aileron inputs for as much possible, and
> only use the rudder,
> > >as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that
> results from airspeed
> > >changes, such as slowing down just before stall
> turns and spin entries or
> > >speeding up as the plane descends. These are
> almost always judicious
> > >downwind rudder corrections.
> > >The aileron inputs will not be corrections,
> because they will actually 
> >have
> > >to happen as the looping action begins. After the
> fact is too late, and
> > >then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a
> wing panel. Of course,
> > >dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little
> compared to when you are
> > >puilling G's.
> > >
> > >Hopefully, we will approach this problem from
> several different angles 
> >and
> > >ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it
> before long!
> > >Then the other aspect of the art that Adam
> mentioned will start to kick 
> >in.
> > >
> > >
> > >Dean Pappas
> > >Sr. Design Engineer
> > >Kodeos Communications
> > >111 Corporate Blvd.
> > >South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> > >(908) 222-7817 phone
> > >(908) 222-2392 fax
> > >d.pappas at kodeos.com
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On
> Behalf Of Jim
> > >Woodward
> > >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM
> > >To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> > >
> > >
> > >Well said Adam! The only way for the wings to be
> continuously "level"
> > >during any radius or loop in a bad cross wind is
> by rolling the plane.
> > >Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just
> to maintain the look of
> > >wings level through the entire maneuver set.
> Despite the requirement for
> > >wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis,
> the ailerons are the 
> >most
> > >important control surface on the plane and are
> not "set and forget"
> > >surfaces. If you want to reduce your rudder work
> 50%, continuously focus
> > >on
> > >"wings" level. When the wings are level, the nose
> will always "seek" to 
> >go
> > >into the wind. If the wings are not level, you
> flash more surface area to
> > >the wind and will be blown "with" the direction
> of the wind. If you are
> > >spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a
> tendancy to go into the wind
> > >in
> > >all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a
> speed in general. 
> >(stall
> 
=== message truncated ===>
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Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com

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