<div>Wow. All this time I thought the "crap angle" was due to the wind causing the porta-johns at a contest to lean.</div> <div> </div> <div>Bob R.</div> <div><BR><BR><B><I>Bob Kane <getterflash@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">The crab angle is the relationship between the flight<BR>path and fuselage heading in a crosswind situation.<BR>The crap angle is what happens when you don't correct<BR>for the crab angle when pulling or pushing into the<BR>next manuever segment. I am somewhat of an expert in<BR>demnstrating the crap angle effect. ;)<BR><BR><BR>--- John Konneker <JLKONN@HOTMAIL.COM>wrote:<BR><BR>> John,<BR>> Holy smoke!!!!!!!!!!<BR>> I think the light bulb is coming on.<BR>> When you said roll into the wind I thought<BR>> "What"!!!!!<BR>> I have a little airplane shaped calendar thingy here<BR>> on the desk.<BR>> What the
heck...<BR>> I picked it up and hand flew it into a loop with a<BR>> crap angle away from me <BR>> going right to left and rolled it a little right as<BR>> I pulled up.<BR>> I can see what you're talking about!!!<BR>> JLK<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: John Pavlick <IDSMAIL@SBCGLOBAL.NET><BR>> >To: jlkonn@hotmail.com<BR>> >CC: jpavlick@idseng.com<BR>> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction<BR>> >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>> ><BR>> >John,<BR>> > There's no crying in Pattern! I hear what<BR>> you're saying. That was me a <BR>> >few years ago. Here's and easy way to sort this<BR>> out: Roll into the wind. <BR>> >Does that make sense? Here's an example: Flying<BR>> from your right to your <BR>> >left, with the wind blowing in (in your face), the<BR>> plane will be crabbed <BR>> >out with a right yaw attitude. When you pull UP<BR>> elevator for
the looping <BR>> >segment, roll right. If you're going in the other<BR>> direction, of course the <BR>> >roll direction is reversed as well. Practice this<BR>> until you start to see <BR>> >things cleaning up. What you're looking for is the<BR>> wings perfectly aligned <BR>> >(in the roll axis NOT necessarily the yaw axis) to<BR>> the track of the loop on <BR>> >the vertical points. When you get it down, remember<BR>> to enter and exit with <BR>> >your wings level. This will take some more practice<BR>> but you'll get it. <BR>> >You'll be scoring 10's on those 2 loops in no time!<BR>> ><BR>> > John Pavlick<BR>> > http://www.idseng.com<BR>> ><BR>> >John Konneker <JLKONN@HOTMAIL.COM>wrote:<BR>> > Dean, Adam and all,<BR>> >Thanks for the great replies.<BR>> >Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by<BR>> "the plane of the plane<BR>> >staying square
to the plane of the flightline"...I<BR>> think!<BR>> >I can see that one attempt to correct the problem<BR>> only results in another.<BR>> >To be specific flying Sportsman. Takeoff direction<BR>> from left to right. I<BR>> >have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and<BR>> I am making a ground<BR>> >track correction on the Straight Flight Back with<BR>> rudder. This yaws the<BR>> >nose into the crosswind blowing in my face. I am<BR>> approaching the downwind<BR>> >end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to<BR>> the looping portion of my<BR>> >Cuban Eight.<BR>> >If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I<BR>> loop over the top the nose<BR>> >is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind.<BR>> I can see I am really<BR>> >beginning to suck dishwater now! I have a big<BR>> heading error to correct and<BR>> >it won't be very pretty. I am visualizing the<BR>>
problem, and experienced it<BR>> >over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized<BR>> the solution.<BR>> >Like I said...I could have just sat down on the<BR>> edge of the runway and<BR>> >cried!<BR>> >JLK<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > >From: "Dean Pappas"<BR>> > >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>> > >To: "NSRCA Mailing List"<BR>> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction<BR>> > >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Hi John,<BR>> > >I have long struggled to find a good way to<BR>> explain this, in print.<BR>> > >If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the<BR>> plane of the plane <BR>> >staying<BR>> > >square to the plane of the flightline", it may<BR>> help. Maybe it won't!<BR>> > >A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Even from crabbed level flight, or
a properly<BR>> crabbed vertical, any time<BR>> > >the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn<BR>> into unwanted<BR>> > >wings-not-square<BR>> > >and the direction of the resulting turn will<BR>> always be downwind! Adam's<BR>> > >suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion<BR>> times.<BR>> > >Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads<BR>> of rudder to fly in a<BR>> > >crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.<BR>> > >Airspeed (or at least having it available on<BR>> demand) is your friend in a<BR>> > >crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to<BR>> fly the airplane<BR>> > >uncross-controlled as much as possible.<BR>> Eventually, you will use very <BR>> >very<BR>> > >small aileron inputs for as much possible, and<BR>> only use the rudder,<BR>> > >as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that<BR>> results
from airspeed<BR>> > >changes, such as slowing down just before stall<BR>> turns and spin entries or<BR>> > >speeding up as the plane descends. These are<BR>> almost always judicious<BR>> > >downwind rudder corrections.<BR>> > >The aileron inputs will not be corrections,<BR>> because they will actually <BR>> >have<BR>> > >to happen as the looping action begins. After the<BR>> fact is too late, and<BR>> > >then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a<BR>> wing panel. Of course,<BR>> > >dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little<BR>> compared to when you are<BR>> > >puilling G's.<BR>> > ><BR>> > >Hopefully, we will approach this problem from<BR>> several different angles <BR>> >and<BR>> > >ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it<BR>> before long!<BR>> > >Then the other aspect of the art that Adam<BR>> mentioned will
start to kick <BR>> >in.<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >Dean Pappas<BR>> > >Sr. Design Engineer<BR>> > >Kodeos Communications<BR>> > >111 Corporate Blvd.<BR>> > >South Plainfield, N.J. 07080<BR>> > >(908) 222-7817 phone<BR>> > >(908) 222-2392 fax<BR>> > >d.pappas@kodeos.com<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >-----Original Message-----<BR>> > >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On<BR>> Behalf Of Jim<BR>> > >Woodward<BR>> > >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM<BR>> > >To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR>> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > >Well said Adam! The only way for the wings to be<BR>> continuously "level"<BR>> > >during any radius or loop in a bad cross
wind is<BR>> by rolling the plane.<BR>> > >Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just<BR>> to maintain the look of<BR>> > >wings level through the entire maneuver set.<BR>> Despite the requirement for<BR>> > >wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis,<BR>> the ailerons are the <BR>> >most<BR>> > >important control surface on the plane and are<BR>> not "set and forget"<BR>> > >surfaces. If you want to reduce your rudder work<BR>> 50%, continuously focus<BR>> > >on<BR>> > >"wings" level. When the wings are level, the nose<BR>> will always "seek" to <BR>> >go<BR>> > >into the wind. If the wings are not level, you<BR>> flash more surface area to<BR>> > >the wind and will be blown "with" the direction<BR>> of the wind. If you are<BR>> > >spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a<BR>> tendancy to go into the wind<BR>> >
>in<BR>> > >all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a<BR>> speed in general. <BR>> >(stall<BR>> <BR>=== message truncated ===><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>><BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR><BR><BR>Bob Kane<BR>getterflash@yahoo.com<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <BR>http://mail.yahoo.com <BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>