[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction, correct terms

Mon Aug 14 09:05:55 AKDT 2006

Bob,
That was a good one.
I too am quickly becomming an expert at the crap angle!
JLK

>From: Bob Kane <getterflash at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction, correct terms
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
>
>The crab angle is the relationship between the flight
>path and fuselage heading in a crosswind situation.
>The crap angle is what happens when you don't correct
>for the crab angle when pulling or pushing into the
>next manuever segment. I am somewhat of an expert in
>demnstrating the crap angle effect.  ;)
>
>
>--- John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John,
> > Holy smoke!!!!!!!!!!
> > I think the light bulb is coming on.
> > When you said roll into the wind I thought
> > "What"!!!!!
> > I have a little airplane shaped calendar thingy here
> > on the desk.
> > What the heck...
> > I picked it up and hand flew it into a loop with a
> > crap angle away from me
> > going right to left and rolled it a little right as
> > I pulled up.
> > I can see what you're talking about!!!
> > JLK
> >
> >
> > >From: John Pavlick <idsmail at sbcglobal.net>
> > >To: jlkonn at hotmail.com
> > >CC: jpavlick at idseng.com
> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> > >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >John,
> > >    There's no crying in Pattern! I hear what
> > you're saying. That was me a
> > >few years ago. Here's and easy way to sort this
> > out: Roll into the wind.
> > >Does that make sense? Here's an example: Flying
> > from your right to your
> > >left, with the wind blowing in (in your face), the
> > plane will be crabbed
> > >out with a right yaw attitude. When you pull UP
> > elevator for the looping
> > >segment, roll right. If you're going in the other
> > direction, of course the
> > >roll direction is reversed as well. Practice this
> > until you start to see
> > >things cleaning up. What you're looking for is the
> > wings perfectly aligned
> > >(in the roll axis NOT necessarily the yaw axis) to
> > the track of the loop on
> > >the vertical points. When you get it down, remember
> > to enter and exit with
> > >your wings level. This will take some more practice
> > but you'll get it.
> > >You'll be scoring 10's on those 2 loops in no time!
> > >
> > >   John Pavlick
> > >   http://www.idseng.com
> > >
> > >John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >   Dean, Adam and all,
> > >Thanks for the great replies.
> > >Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by
> > "the plane of the plane
> > >staying square to the plane of the flightline"...I
> > think!
> > >I can see that one attempt to correct the problem
> > only results in another.
> > >To be specific flying Sportsman. Takeoff direction
> > from left to right. I
> > >have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and
> > I am making a ground
> > >track correction on the Straight Flight Back with
> > rudder. This yaws the
> > >nose into the crosswind blowing in my face. I am
> > approaching the downwind
> > >end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to
> > the looping portion of my
> > >Cuban Eight.
> > >If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I
> > loop over the top the nose
> > >is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind.
> > I can see I am really
> > >beginning to suck dishwater now! I have a big
> > heading error to correct and
> > >it won't be very pretty. I am visualizing the
> > problem, and experienced it
> > >over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized
> > the solution.
> > >Like I said...I could have just sat down on the
> > edge of the runway and
> > >cried!
> > >JLK
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Dean Pappas"
> > > >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > > >To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> > > >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400
> > > >
> > > >Hi John,
> > > >I have long struggled to find a good way to
> > explain this, in print.
> > > >If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the
> > plane of the plane
> > >staying
> > > >square to the plane of the flightline", it may
> > help. Maybe it won't!
> > > >A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.
> > > >
> > > >Even from crabbed level flight, or a properly
> > crabbed vertical, any time
> > > >the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn
> > into unwanted
> > > >wings-not-square
> > > >and the direction of the resulting turn will
> > always be downwind! Adam's
> > > >suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion
> > times.
> > > >Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads
> > of rudder to fly in a
> > > >crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.
> > > >Airspeed (or at least having it available on
> > demand) is your friend in a
> > > >crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to
> > fly the airplane
> > > >uncross-controlled as much as possible.
> > Eventually, you will use very
> > >very
> > > >small aileron inputs for as much possible, and
> > only use the rudder,
> > > >as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that
> > results from airspeed
> > > >changes, such as slowing down just before stall
> > turns and spin entries or
> > > >speeding up as the plane descends. These are
> > almost always judicious
> > > >downwind rudder corrections.
> > > >The aileron inputs will not be corrections,
> > because they will actually
> > >have
> > > >to happen as the looping action begins. After the
> > fact is too late, and
> > > >then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a
> > wing panel. Of course,
> > > >dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little
> > compared to when you are
> > > >puilling G's.
> > > >
> > > >Hopefully, we will approach this problem from
> > several different angles
> > >and
> > > >ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it
> > before long!
> > > >Then the other aspect of the art that Adam
> > mentioned will start to kick
> > >in.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Dean Pappas
> > > >Sr. Design Engineer
> > > >Kodeos Communications
> > > >111 Corporate Blvd.
> > > >South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> > > >(908) 222-7817 phone
> > > >(908) 222-2392 fax
> > > >d.pappas at kodeos.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >
> > >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On
> > Behalf Of Jim
> > > >Woodward
> > > >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM
> > > >To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> > > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Well said Adam! The only way for the wings to be
> > continuously "level"
> > > >during any radius or loop in a bad cross wind is
> > by rolling the plane.
> > > >Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just
> > to maintain the look of
> > > >wings level through the entire maneuver set.
> > Despite the requirement for
> > > >wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis,
> > the ailerons are the
> > >most
> > > >important control surface on the plane and are
> > not "set and forget"
> > > >surfaces. If you want to reduce your rudder work
> > 50%, continuously focus
> > > >on
> > > >"wings" level. When the wings are level, the nose
> > will always "seek" to
> > >go
> > > >into the wind. If the wings are not level, you
> > flash more surface area to
> > > >the wind and will be blown "with" the direction
> > of the wind. If you are
> > > >spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a
> > tendancy to go into the wind
> > > >in
> > > >all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a
> > speed in general.
> > >(stall
> >
>=== message truncated ===>
>_______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>Bob Kane
>getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>_______________________________________________
>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/