[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction

Mon Aug 14 07:38:14 AKDT 2006

You're onto it!

Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John
Konneker
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:33 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction

Dean, Adam and all,
Thanks for the great replies.
Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by "the plane of the plane 
staying square to the plane of the flightline"...I think!
I can see that one attempt to correct the problem only results in another.
To be specific flying Sportsman.  Takeoff direction from left to right.  I 
have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and I am making a ground 
track correction on the Straight Flight Back with rudder.  This yaws the 
nose into the crosswind blowing in my face.  I am approaching the downwind 
end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to the looping portion of my 
Cuban Eight.
If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I loop over the top the nose 
is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind.  I can see I am really 
beginning to suck dishwater now!  I have a big heading error to correct and 
it won't be very pretty.  I am visualizing the problem, and experienced it 
over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized the solution.
Like I said...I could have just sat down on the edge of the runway and 
cried!
JLK

>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400
>
>Hi John,
>I have long struggled to find a good way to explain this, in print.
>If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the plane of the plane staying 
>square to the plane of the flightline", it may help. Maybe it won't!
>A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.
>
>Even from crabbed level flight, or a properly crabbed vertical, any time 
>the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn into unwanted 
>wings-not-square
>and the direction of the resulting turn will always be downwind! Adam's 
>suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion times.
>Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads of rudder to fly in a 
>crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.
>Airspeed (or at least having it available on demand) is your friend in a 
>crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to fly the airplane
>uncross-controlled as much as possible. Eventually, you will use very very 
>small aileron inputs for as much possible, and only use the rudder,
>as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that results from airspeed 
>changes, such as slowing down just before stall turns and spin entries or 
>speeding up as the plane descends. These are almost always judicious 
>downwind rudder corrections.
>The aileron inputs will not be corrections, because they will actually have 
>to happen as the looping action begins. After the fact is too late, and 
>then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a wing panel. Of course, 
>dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little compared to when you are 
>puilling G's.
>
>Hopefully, we will approach this problem from several different angles and 
>ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it before long!
>Then the other aspect of the art that Adam mentioned will start to kick in.
>
>
>Dean Pappas
>Sr. Design Engineer
>Kodeos Communications
>111 Corporate Blvd.
>South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>(908) 222-7817 phone
>(908) 222-2392 fax
>d.pappas at kodeos.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jim
>Woodward
>Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM
>To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>
>
>Well said Adam!  The only way for the wings to be continuously "level"
>during any radius or loop in a bad cross wind is by rolling the plane.
>Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just to maintain the look of
>wings level through the entire maneuver set.  Despite the requirement for
>wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis, the ailerons are the most
>important control surface on the plane and are not "set and forget"
>surfaces.  If you want to reduce your rudder work 50%, continuously focus 
>on
>"wings" level.  When the wings are level, the nose will always "seek" to go
>into the wind.  If the wings are not level, you flash more surface area to
>the wind and will be blown "with" the direction of the wind.  If you are
>spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a tendancy to go into the wind 
>in
>all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a speed in general. (stall
>turns, spins)
>
>Thanks,
>Jim W.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Adam Glatt
>Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:15 AM
>To: NSRCA Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>
>Hi John.  Welcome to the game of wind correction.  There's flying
>pattern, and then there's flying pattern in the wind.  The difference is
>that in the wind you have to mentally trace the change in position of
>the airplane to determine the correct pitch and yaw to fly at.  In calm
>you simply point the plane where you want to go.
>
>Perfect wind correction in pattern requires the wings be held level with
>the horizon for all normal flight, and during rolls the points are still
>perfect 45 or 90 degree banks from level with horizon.  Wind correction
>is completely in the yaw and pitch.  In practice, this results in
>techniques like always-present yaw angle in a crosswind; slight pitch
>angles in any and all uplines, 45s, and loops in the presence of a down
>the runway wind.
>
>There are more techniques that you will need to be perfect at it.  The
>more advanced ones include higher throttle while flying upwind and lower
>while flying downwind, varying elevator position throughout any and all
>looping segments in a down the runway wind to achieve a truly round loop
>(if, during the loop, you go from straight up to upwind you will need to
>decrease your elevator input, as the plane will have a high airspeed by
>low ground speed; if, during the loop, you go from straight up to
>downwind you will need to increase your elevator input), and  the
>trickiest of all, aileron correction during a yaw'd pitch change (i.e.
>every time you use elevator in a crosswind).
>
>That last one is often completely overlooked until someone tells you
>about it.  The best way to realize this correction is needed is with a
>stick plane or hand plane. Fly a level horizontal at a huge yaw angle to
>compensate for a huge crosswind.  So, fly straight but have your plane
>yaw'd 45 degrees.  Now pull elevator.  Remeber, the elevator raises the
>noise relative to the tail.  As the nose lifts and eventually gets to a
>vertical, and if you've been honest with yourself, the ailerons are now
>banked.  The only solution to this is aileron input during the elevator
>input.
>
>Have fun in the wind.
>
>-Adam
>
>John Konneker wrote:
> > I'm new at this.
> > OK, not really but it's been over 20 years.
> > Yesterday while practicing in enough crosswind (blowing in) to have a
> > noticeable effect I was having difficulty keeping the plane form coming 
>in
>
> > too close.
> > I am confused about what the acceptable techniques are to maintain
>position
> > and ground track.
> > Is it acceptable to fly a maneuver with less than wings level to
>counteract
> > the crosswind?  This has the effect of corkscrewing the loops, etc.
> > In the stall turns while going up trying to hold the plane into the wind
>it
> > will begin to yaw early giving the impression that the turn is being
>"lead"
> > and is starting too early.
> > Is this acceptable.
> > Like I said, I'm confused as to what is wind correction and what starts
>the
> > "1 point per 15 degree" deductions.
> > Thanks!
> > JLK
> >
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