Electric F3A

[John Ferrell]

Very well explained, both Eric & Del.

When I went to bed last night I was planning how to go about the project.
When I woke up this morning I was trying to remember why I wanted to do it.

It is looking more and more like I want stay wet. It has not been a matter 
of competition for me for several years.

Unfortunately, when you raise the bar too high, us amateurs quit trying. 
Pattern has not been a spectator sport for quite a while.

At one time, a couple of $3500 pattern planes seemed reasonable. $400 for a 
drum of fuel seemed reasonable. Traveling somewhere every other weekend 
seemed reasonable. Perhaps it was just a stage of life I was passing 
through, but the costs are far exceeding the benefits nowadays.

It seems to me that there is a trend around here in that kind of 
reasoning...
I hope the condition is local.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grow Pattern" <pattern4u at comcast.net>
To: "NSRCA Discussion" <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Electric F3A


> Del,
>       It always intrigues me how much people will rationalize once they 
> have made a decision to go one way or another. I well remember the YS 
> zealots who would tell you how great their engines were. I also remember 
> how much they LEFT OUT!
>
> Back then you didn't hear about how many piston, rods, bearings etc. that 
> they were going through, especially if they were sponsored or 
> psuedo-sponsored.
>
> When, as a reporter, I asked a lot of questions about electrics I never go 
> very good answers. I even purchased a bunch of Thunder power batteries and 
> Hacker motors and speed controllers. When I wrote on this list with even 
> the slightest hint of criticism of electrics my e-mail inbox would soon 
> start filling up. I was told I didn't know this and I didn't know that 
> etc. well guess what there was a lot i didn't know, but also a lot that 
> neither you or I were not getting told.
>
> I had a very hard push back from Jerry Budd about how wrong I was and how 
> great the stuff was that he and Tony Frackowiak were running. No doubt 
> about their successes and I am absolutely not even trying to detract from 
> that at all. BUT when you poke me that hard my instincts kick in and go 
> digging.
>
> I was told 700 + great flights - So I then ask, at what cost?  Was it 20 
> packs?  The cost, unless sponsored, is around $700 a pack (2 sticks). How 
> deep are your pockets folks?
>
> How long did the packs last? Was it months or more like just a few weeks? 
> When I say how long I really mean how many cycles. Talking to experienced 
> electric FAI users I get numbers like 40-60 on the 8000mAh packs, but 
> better on the newer ones. Even at the claimed two flights per charge 
> that's still pretty expensive!
>
> I also found out that the packs were not aging very well. I could not find 
> out for sure but I think it was around 3 months before they became 
> non-competitive..Would they be good after a winter of none flying. Could 
> not get an answer there at all.
>
> Then I got into how  many motors have been in Tony/Jerry's plane to get 
> that many flights. How many repairs to motors for whatever reason.
> Very hard to get an answer here so I'll will also be vague.  Several gear 
> boxes and motors/rotors went in and out of that plane. To you and I how 
> much that represents not only in dollars, but lost flying time while 
> waiting for repairs, is hard to estimate but you can draw your own 
> conclusions. You could say that the new electrics are like the old YS's. 
> No matter what you say there are definitely a set of "hidden" factors that 
> should be put into the equation when comparing electric and glow.
>
> I then got into how many packs you need to take to the field for a 
> practice session or a local contest. That obviously depends upon how many 
> chargers you have. I used to use three 109's. I saw most using 5 chargers 
> and two, three or even four, deep cycle batteries. I am assuming was the 
> case unless there was a 110v supply nearby. Then you need to consider 
> maintaining the 12 v batteries as well. i needed six packs fro one 
> session. If there was not time between a round to charge you needed a 
> fresh pack. Never asked what fresh meant. Maybe I should have?
>
> I know that several controllers impersonated in-flight smoke systems. That 
> one I knew about and is to be expected when you put a lot of DC 
> electricity though things, sooner or later, right!
>
> I don't think that I was lied to, but I do think that when people are 
> sponsored or just enamored with the latest purchase that they leave out 
> the sort of stuff that we all really need to know. As and aside, I have 
> seen a lot more honest reports on electric performance now that the world 
> championships are over.
>
> I know that I will get some heat for what I report on this list, but if I 
> help a pattern pilot make a better decision it will make the asbestos 
> underwear feel more comfortable.
> I am still concerned that regular pattern pilots will spend a lot of 
> money, get trapped on the treadmill of "latest" power-pack/motor, and then 
> be very disappointed in the longevity of their equipment.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eric.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Del K. Rykert" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>
> To: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>; "NSRCA Discussion" 
> <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Electric F3A
>
>
>> For some of us this is why we will never be able to afford to switch even 
>> if we felt the desire..
>>
>>                 Del
>>          nsrca - 473
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Discussion" <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: Electric F3A
>>
>>
>>> Battery prices and their unpredictable life seem to be the major 
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Still, it does not seem to me that one can compute the power needs for 
>>> an electric from the experience gained with an IC power plant.
>>>
>>> John Ferrell
>>> http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>>> To: "NSRCA Discussion" <discussion at nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:21 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Electric F3A
>>>
>>>
>>>> John,
>>>> Don't try to compare Apples and Oranges. I've seen Dan's plane fly and 
>>>> yes
>>>> it seems to work very well.  Remember though, an electric motor and an
>>>> internal combustion engine have very different torque output / power 
>>>> curves.
>>>> While an I.C. engine generally needs to spin faster to generate torque, 
>>>> an
>>>> electric motor can generate a lot of torque at very low RPM. Also, I 
>>>> don't
>>>> think an electric motor really "unloads" as the plane flies. I've only
>>>> played with the little stuff, so I'm not an expert by any means. It 
>>>> will be
>>>> very interesting to see what develops in the near future. If only 
>>>> batteries
>>>> were a little more reasonably priced...
>>>>
>>>> John Pavlick
>>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>  From: discussion-request at nsrca.org 
>>>> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of John Ferrell
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:32 PM
>>>>  To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>>>  Subject: Re: Electric F3A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  You are getting through to me...
>>>>  Dan Landis was using a Glow prop on his Brio at the Nats. That helps 
>>>> me to
>>>> better understand the power requirements.
>>>>
>>>>  Other than buy & try, is there a way to determine what kind of battery
>>>> requirements might be required to drive an APC 15-12 at about 8200 rpm? 
>>>> I
>>>> had in mind the same AXI 5330/18 motor that Landis used.
>>>>
>>>>  Another way to ask my question is "what does it take to replace a 
>>>> YS140?
>>>>
>>>>  John Ferrell
>>>>  http://DixieNC.US
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>
>>>
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>
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