Electric F3A

Thu Sep 22 07:17:49 AKDT 2005

Del,
       It always intrigues me how much people will rationalize once they 
have made a decision to go one way or another. I well remember the YS 
zealots who would tell you how great their engines were. I also remember how 
much they LEFT OUT!

Back then you didn't hear about how many piston, rods, bearings etc. that 
they were going through, especially if they were sponsored or 
psuedo-sponsored.

When, as a reporter, I asked a lot of questions about electrics I never go 
very good answers. I even purchased a bunch of Thunder power batteries and 
Hacker motors and speed controllers. When I wrote on this list with even the 
slightest hint of criticism of electrics my e-mail inbox would soon start 
filling up. I was told I didn't know this and I didn't know that etc. well 
guess what there was a lot i didn't know, but also a lot that neither you or 
I were not getting told.

I had a very hard push back from Jerry Budd about how wrong I was and how 
great the stuff was that he and Tony Frackowiak were running. No doubt about 
their successes and I am absolutely not even trying to detract from that at 
all. BUT when you poke me that hard my instincts kick in and go digging.

I was told 700 + great flights - So I then ask, at what cost?  Was it 20 
packs?  The cost, unless sponsored, is around $700 a pack (2 sticks). How 
deep are your pockets folks?

How long did the packs last? Was it months or more like just a few weeks? 
When I say how long I really mean how many cycles. Talking to experienced 
electric FAI users I get numbers like 40-60 on the 8000mAh packs, but better 
on the newer ones. Even at the claimed two flights per charge that's still 
pretty expensive!

I also found out that the packs were not aging very well. I could not find 
out for sure but I think it was around 3 months before they became 
non-competitive..Would they be good after a winter of none flying. Could not 
get an answer there at all.

Then I got into how  many motors have been in Tony/Jerry's plane to get that 
many flights. How many repairs to motors for whatever reason.
Very hard to get an answer here so I'll will also be vague.  Several gear 
boxes and motors/rotors went in and out of that plane. To you and I how much 
that represents not only in dollars, but lost flying time while waiting for 
repairs, is hard to estimate but you can draw your own conclusions. You 
could say that the new electrics are like the old YS's.  No matter what you 
say there are definitely a set of "hidden" factors that should be put into 
the equation when comparing electric and glow.

I then got into how many packs you need to take to the field for a practice 
session or a local contest. That obviously depends upon how many chargers 
you have. I used to use three 109's. I saw most using 5 chargers and two, 
three or even four, deep cycle batteries. I am assuming was the case unless 
there was a 110v supply nearby. Then you need to consider maintaining the 12 
v batteries as well. i needed six packs fro one session. If there was not 
time between a round to charge you needed a fresh pack. Never asked what 
fresh meant. Maybe I should have?

I know that several controllers impersonated in-flight smoke systems. That 
one I knew about and is to be expected when you put a lot of DC electricity 
though things, sooner or later, right!

I don't think that I was lied to, but I do think that when people are 
sponsored or just enamored with the latest purchase that they leave out the 
sort of stuff that we all really need to know. As and aside, I have seen a 
lot more honest reports on electric performance now that the world 
championships are over.

I know that I will get some heat for what I report on this list, but if I 
help a pattern pilot make a better decision it will make the asbestos 
underwear feel more comfortable.
I am still concerned that regular pattern pilots will spend a lot of money, 
get trapped on the treadmill of "latest" power-pack/motor, and then be very 
disappointed in the longevity of their equipment.

Regards,

Eric.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Del K. Rykert" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>
To: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>; "NSRCA Discussion" 
<discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Electric F3A

> For some of us this is why we will never be able to afford to switch even 
> if we felt the desire..
>
>                 Del
>          nsrca - 473
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
> To: "NSRCA Discussion" <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Electric F3A
>
>
>> Battery prices and their unpredictable life seem to be the major problem.
>>
>> Still, it does not seem to me that one can compute the power needs for an 
>> electric from the experience gained with an IC power plant.
>>
>> John Ferrell
>> http://DixieNC.US
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>> To: "NSRCA Discussion" <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:21 AM
>> Subject: RE: Electric F3A
>>
>>
>>> John,
>>> Don't try to compare Apples and Oranges. I've seen Dan's plane fly and 
>>> yes
>>> it seems to work very well.  Remember though, an electric motor and an
>>> internal combustion engine have very different torque output / power 
>>> curves.
>>> While an I.C. engine generally needs to spin faster to generate torque, 
>>> an
>>> electric motor can generate a lot of torque at very low RPM. Also, I 
>>> don't
>>> think an electric motor really "unloads" as the plane flies. I've only
>>> played with the little stuff, so I'm not an expert by any means. It will 
>>> be
>>> very interesting to see what develops in the near future. If only 
>>> batteries
>>> were a little more reasonably priced...
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: discussion-request at nsrca.org 
>>> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On
>>> Behalf Of John Ferrell
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:32 PM
>>>  To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>>  Subject: Re: Electric F3A
>>>
>>>
>>>  You are getting through to me...
>>>  Dan Landis was using a Glow prop on his Brio at the Nats. That helps me 
>>> to
>>> better understand the power requirements.
>>>
>>>  Other than buy & try, is there a way to determine what kind of battery
>>> requirements might be required to drive an APC 15-12 at about 8200 rpm? 
>>> I
>>> had in mind the same AXI 5330/18 motor that Landis used.
>>>
>>>  Another way to ask my question is "what does it take to replace a 
>>> YS140?
>>>
>>>  John Ferrell
>>>  http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 9/20/05
>>>
>>> =================================================
>>> If you want your reply email to go to the list, you must Cc: the list!
>>>
>>> To access the email archives for this list, go to
>>> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
>>> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
>>> and follow the instructions.
>>>
>>> List members email returned for mailbox full will be removed from the 
>>> list.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> =================================================
>> If you want your reply email to go to the list, you must Cc: the list!
>>
>> To access the email archives for this list, go to
>> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
>> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
>> and follow the instructions.
>>
>> List members email returned for mailbox full will be removed from the 
>> list.
>>
>>
>
> =================================================
> If you want your reply email to go to the list, you must Cc: the list!
>
> To access the email archives for this list, go to
> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
> and follow the instructions.
>
> List members email returned for mailbox full will be removed from the 
> list.
>
> 

=================================================
If you want your reply email to go to the list, you must Cc: the list!

To access the email archives for this list, go to
http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
and follow the instructions.

List members email returned for mailbox full will be removed from the list.