F3A judges for local comps

Thu Nov 10 14:48:23 AKST 2005

You are exactly 1/2 right Dave. For many, if not most pilots, the other half is probably just as important. 

For F3A pilots, the other half---how they scored against their peers at the contest and against the maximum amount possible--- are the real goals. It's not much of a stretch to consider that most F3A'rs care relatively little about the trophy per se'. Most have boxes full of them from lower classes.

Dean offers an interesting solution to Pete's tough situation. The only thing I would suggest to Pete is not to forget to include the better Sportsman pilots in the mix. That's how we all learned to judge the more complicated higher class schedules, by learning from the veterans

regards,

Matt Kebabjian

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Burton <burtona at bellsouth.net>
To: Dean Pappas <d.pappas at kodeos.com>; discussion at nsrca.org
Sent: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:09:22 -0500
Subject: RE: F3A judges for local comps

I must be getting too old for pattern. Makes my head hurt to follow all this.
I think we make it too complicated. Gotta remember the objective is to line up 
the pilots in each class from best to worse. It doesn't matter what the scores 
are as long as we always get the objective right.
In thirty some years of flying contest, I don't recall a single time when the 
best pilot didn't win. No matter how bad or good the judging is we always meet 
that objective in my experience.
Dave Burton

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dean Pappas
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 9:01 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: RE: F3A judges for local comps

Hi Pete,
So you are in a bind. Let me add another way-out possibility to the mix.
Let's say you have a different one or two out of "N" pilots, in the class, skip 
each round, and judge instead.
You total up the scores of those two judges, and assign the pilots who did fly 
in the round an ordinal ranking.

Why an ordinal? Because trying to mix scores in an uneven exposure situation is 
problematic, and preserving the actual point spreads offers several ways for a 
judging competitor to be ... ahem ... strategic. All you preserve from each 
round is a direct, better or not, comparison of one pilot against each other, in 
the round. This still offers a crooked competitor a way to booger the results, 
but this setup is not being offered up as any kind of ideal!

 First, you have to juggle the number of judges per round, and the number of 
rounds so that no one sits out a comparatively large number of rounds, and also 
so that no one ever judges with the same other person(s) twice. This will not be 
trivial, but not everyone needs to judge. It might be nice ... It will probably 
dictate how many rounds are flown. In the case of weather problems, ties are 
easily possible, unless each flier in contention has flown at least one round 
against each other contender.

 Because of the mixing, each competitor will get a chance to be directly 
compared to each other competitor, for at least a good portion of the rounds. 
That's why you never judge with the same guy twice: you want to be compared to 
him, too.You average all the ordinals a pilot got, and compare those, at the end 
of the contest. low number wins. Rounds judged don't count in the average, and 
missed rounds are assigned last place. You might decide to drop a pilot's worst 
ordinal, before averaging.

I know it's a wacky setup, but if there was only one class of Pattern, something 
like this might have happened. You know that there were, once upon a time, such 
things as club judges!

Dean

    -----Original Message----- 
    From: discussion-request at nsrca.org on behalf of Dave Burton 
    Sent: Wed 11/9/2005 6:17 PM 
    To: Peter Pennisi; discussion at nsrca.org 
    Cc: 
    Subject: RE: F3A judges for local comps

    I think it's a good idea, except I'd suggest not dropping the high and low
    scores. Let them all count and IMO you'll get a better result.
    Dave Burton

    -----Original Message-----
    From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
    [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Peter Pennisi
    Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:42 PM
    To: discussion at nsrca.org
    Subject: F3A judges for local comps

    We currently have a big problem with the number of experienced flyers which
    show up at comps. We have a healthy number of F3A flyers and a good number
    of new and very inexperienced sportsman class flyers. Unfortunately our
    middle ranks have been decimated for reasons I am not really sure about
    (that is a topic for another day).

    Anyway this leaves us very short for experienced judges who a capable of
    judging F3A.

    We a going to try an experiment by having F3A flyers judge each other for
    the comp. Lets say we have five F3A flyers -while one fly's the others judge
    that flight which gives us four judges. We will drop the highest and lowest
    scores and the other scores will be averaged to arrive at a flight score and
    so forth.

    Results for each of the rounds will not be available until the end of the
    comp and flyers are not to discuss anything about judging the flights until
    the end of the comp.

    Has anyone tried this and are there any other suggestions we can use to make
    it work.

    The approach will fail if competitors team up to try and force a result but
    the guys involved are not that type.

    What do you all think?

    Peter

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