Rules Changes----Advancement

Wed Mar 9 03:09:57 AKST 2005

Whatever class he feels comfortable with. My guess is that after a few 
contests he would be bored with Intermediate, if he chose to start there, 
and move up to Advanced.

>From: "Tim Taylor" <twtaylor at ftc-i.net>
>Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
>To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement
>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:47:41 -0500
>
>Let me throw this at you guys for discussion then. You have a old time
>pattern pilot returning after almost 13 years off from the sport. He didn't
>even fly for sport much. When the guy quit flying he'd just pointed out of
>advance into masters and flew a couple of contests in one year then quit.
>Now jumping back into the sport what class would you expect him to fly now?
>Advanced? Intermediate? Why which class?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
>To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:42 PM
>Subject: Fw: Rules Changes----Advancement
>
>
> > I agree with Matt that changes in this area should be made with caution.
> >
> > I like the idea that a pilot could fly a higher class for fun and to 
>test
> > the waters, and then drop back to their regular class.
> >
> > I like the idea that somebody having an off year (reduced time or
>equipment
> > in a given year) can drop back a class to make it easier for them to
>compete
> > and have fun.
> >
> > I have no problem with a pilot "demoting" themselves to stay in the 
>event
> > and have fun (so long as they don't end up perpetually at the top of 
>their
> > new chosen class).
> >
> > I think very few people are interested in forcing a pilot to "move up"
> > simply because they accumulated enough points - pilots should move up 
>when
> > they have aquired the skills to fly in the next class, and when they are
> > clearly superior to others in their class - ie, they are sand-baggers /
> > trophy hogs which I don't think are good for the event.
> >
> > The point system is rarely used - but I think it would be easy enough to
> > enforce - most NSRCA Districts track points for the annual District 
>Champs
> > using some kind of system.  It wouldn't be too hard to use data captured
>in
> > the District Champs tracking to figure out AMA advancement points.  I
>think
> > we are fortunate that most pilots do move up at appropriate times, but
> > having a mechanism in place to pressure a few exceptions is a nice 
>option
>to
> > have.  I would absolutely support using the AMA advancement point system
>to
> > force a pilot to move up who clearly belonged in a higher class, but
>stayed
> > put to be a trophy hog.
> >
> > To that end, I think the point system should remain on the books - and
>maybe
> > we could modify it such that it would be more likely to force trophy 
>hogs
>to
> > move up, and less likely to ever push a career guy out of his class.
>There
> > are a number of ways that could be done.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
> > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement
> >
> >
> > I believe that this may open a different can of worms. It's true that 
>some
> > guys attend contests simply for the fun and camaraderie of the flying, 
>but
> > there is a whole nother set of troops that attends to compete. In my
> > opinion, this is the largest of the two, by wide margin. These folks 
>want
>to
> > win, place or show and really try hard to do their best. The former 
>group
> > may not care as much about doing its best; just being there is good
>enough.
> > But it is still an extremely important group nontheless.
> >
> > It seems to me that there are a bunch of guys, (Masters in D3 is a good
> > example) that are very good in their present class(most of us are quite
> > evenly matched), and some of these may decide to drop down a class and
>park
> > for a while. Taking that skill level down to Advanced could demoralize 
>the
> > Advanced level guys that want to really compete, and could actually have
>the
> > exact opposite effect from that desired. I wouldn't want any Advanced
> > competitor to leave the sport because of an infusion of Masters class 
>guys
> > re-entering the class
> >
> > We agree on the fact that the points system is silly and unenforceable.
> >
> > Having said all that, I wouldn't be aversed to a trial run of such a 
>rule.
> > Reconvene after the trial period was over and make a decision on its
> > success--failure. Then make a final decision and have buy-in from the CB
>up
> > front to either make a change, or not. Having CB buy-in up front will
> > alleviate some of the acremonious debate we have seen in past issues.
> >
> > I recommend caution either way. This indeed is unchartered territory, at
> > least in my 27 years, and demands careful thought. I like the fact that
>the
> > committee is thinking in different and challenging ways to improve the
>sport
> > for everyone, eventhough THIS committee's charter is to build schedules
>and
> > not rules.
> >
> >
> > MattK
> >
> > PS- one more thought on this: it may turn out that no self respecting
> > Masters competitor will move down to Advanced, or Advanced down to
> > Intermediate. Then this suggested approach could work. Convincing the 
>AMA
>CB
> > will be the trick
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/8/2005 4:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > patternrules at earthlink.net writes:
> > From: Troy A. Newman
> > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > Sent: 3/8/2005 2:18:31 PM
> > Subject: [SPAM] Rules changes Advancement
> >
> >
> > Buddy,
> > I have been really quiet lately. I don't think the changes you are 
>looking
> > at are going to increase pattern participation. The weight and box 
>limits
> > in my opinion are good and don't need jacking with......
> >
> > I know you and Don are working hard at it. We on the sequence committee
>are
> > as well. I don't think changing the box is going to help us. I really
>don't
> > think changes to the weights or sizes is going to help us....
> >
> > I want to weigh in here so to speak on something that I feel will help
> > pattern grow in changes to the rule book. I feel most changes to the 
>rule
> > book are going to make us more elite or a more secret way you have to do
> > things. Guys that are even in our ranks don't read the rules so why make
> > them even more specialized..and so on.
> >
> > BUT there is a single set of things in the book that I feel and others
>feel
> > need to be addressed.
> >
> > Advancement to the next class.
> >
> > I think we should just NIX all advancement rules. Let the pilot fly
> > whatever wants too and when ever he wants too. Let him jump around if
> > needed. The reason its not used. I have been from sea to shinning sea 
>ATL
> > to CA and have never actually heard anybody keeping track of their 
>points.
> > The AMA says its up to the pilot and they provide a little card to fill
> > out. I have been flying pattern since 86 and have never seen one of the
> > cards! Its not enforceable. There is no database to keep the records. It
> > takes too much time and energy. We spend our time and energy in other
> > places more rightfully so....So lets eliminate the advancement system.
> >
> > Reason #2 is we don't have the numbers we once had to push people up to
> > another class when they may not be ready. SO would we rather push a 
>pilot
> > up to the next class and maybe out by peer pressure...... or have him
> > staying in the same class.
> >
> > My opinion is I don't care if Dave Brown himself came back and flew
> > Advanced. I think we could all benefit from him being a the contest and
> > participating in the events.
> >
> > Prime example I witnessed two district Champions last season move up to
>the
> > next class and neither one was ready to go. But they felt obligated to 
>go
> > since they won the D champs. The reality was that they went to enough
> > contests to get the points. The reality also is they don't have the 
>skills
> > they needed to learn in the previous class.
> >
> > Pattern is about perfection and precision. I see our pattern ranks 
>getting
> > smaller and smaller and the skill sets getting weaker and weaker. The
>pilot
> > that survives the Intermediate sequence for a couple years maybe even 
>wins
> > some stuff around locally then moves up. But the reality is just because
>he
> > won everything locally with maybe 2-3-4 pilot doesn't mean he is now 
>ready
> > for the next show. The quality of flying in the lower classes seems to 
>be
> > lower that it has been in the past. Our numbers seem to be much much 
>lower
> > too. Pattern flying is about perfection and flying that perfect 
>sequence.
>I
> > think if we eliminate the advancement stuff over time we will gain back
> > some of the old dogs for another run. And new pilots that have not 
>learned
> > the required skills can get them before moving on. It has been brought 
>up
> > that back in the old days pre-turnaround...a local guy would dust off 
>his
> > model and support he clubs local event. Maybe if we let him fly whatever
>he
> > wants then we might get him to come back after 5-10 years off. This 
>could
> > also could encourage new people. No pressure to move up. Enjoy the
> > competition at  a level you are comfortable. Right now we reward any
>margin
> > of success with more and more challenge. Maybe this pushes people away.
> > Many people in their lives are content to be right where they are. They
> > want to play and have fun with the group...but are not comfortable up 
>with
> > the next group. WE SHOULD NOT TURN THEM AWAY!
> >
> > Some pilots will never be ready for a jump from Intermediate to 
>advanced.
> > regardless of the current large steps between a couple classes. I feel
>that
> > there are some career Intermediate pilots like my father in-law Jerry. 
>He
> > is one of the best pilots at his local club. He is the man for test
> > flights, and advice among the crowd. But He is happy and challenged with
> > Intermediate. He will continue to be happy and challenged with it for a
> > long time to come.
> >
> > The cheer from the crowd in the awards of the contest is always move
> > up...move up. Especially in Sportsman.Is pushing people away...in my 
>mind.
> > We need to pat them on the back and say good job...not jump IN and get
> > eaten by the sharks.
> >
> > I think this defeats ourselves a little.
> >
> > If we let someone jump around classes and he got in too deep he could
> > always come back without AMA, DVP, and so on approval. Just fly what 
>ever
> > class you want to fly!
> >
> > The question is would we rather have a guy sand bag a little and still
>have
> > him at an event or call him a trophy hog and push him out. This goes for
> > older more seasoned pilots as well. The guy is getting up there a little
>in
> > years like my buddy Pastorello <picking on you man I like to pick on Bob
> > because he fights back!>  and  flew at a very high level of competition
>but
> > now wants to not practice all the time...maybe doesn't have the best 
>model
> > for the job....Let him move back from a masters to an advanced and fly
> > there. He has a bunch of knowledge and can help people at the events. 
>Plus
> > sometimes he is even fun to fly with!
> >
> > Would we rather have him or Not?
> >
> > This does a couple things. Keeps the pilots that can't make it at the
> > higher level what ever the reason...and it also improves the skills of 
>the
> > lower classes.  A newer pilot will have to be more prepared to win an
>event
> > and he will not readily jump to the next class as there is nobody to fly
> > against in the current class. Competition is a motivation factor. If a 
>guy
> > is out there doing his two loops really well...then it will inspire the
> > another pilot to "work on my two loops because old Bob is going to kick 
>my
> > butt when we get to the contest next week."
> >
> > For most people the biggest factor for them being here in Pattern today 
>is
> > they wanted to learn to fly better. But that success and flying better
> > today pushes them into another class that is more difficult yet. You 
>know
> > Mark Martin is still running the Busch Series and he has been a Cup
> > champion and Busch Champion before too. Even though many look at the 
>Busch
> > and Truck series as a kind of minor leagues to the Cup cars.
> >
> > Just some thoughts
> >
> > TN
> >
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