Rules Changes----Advancement

[Ron Van Putte]

On Mar 9, 2005, at 5:47 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:

> Let me throw this at you guys for discussion then. You have a old time
> pattern pilot returning after almost 13 years off from the sport. He 
> didn't
> even fly for sport much. When the guy quit flying he'd just pointed 
> out of
> advance into masters and flew a couple of contests in one year then 
> quit.
> Now jumping back into the sport what class would you expect him to fly 
> now?
> Advanced? Intermediate? Why which class?

My take is that the change to turnaround "reset the clock" for the 
upper classes.  If the guy flew a couple of contests in the old Master 
class 13 years ago, he obviously didn't fly in the new (turnaround) 
Master class.  This means to me that the guy really quit as an Advanced 
pilot and should use the AMA rule option to come back into competition 
as an Intermediate pilot.

Ron Van Putte

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:42 PM
> Subject: Fw: Rules Changes----Advancement
>
>
>> I agree with Matt that changes in this area should be made with 
>> caution.
>>
>> I like the idea that a pilot could fly a higher class for fun and to 
>> test
>> the waters, and then drop back to their regular class.
>>
>> I like the idea that somebody having an off year (reduced time or
> equipment
>> in a given year) can drop back a class to make it easier for them to
> compete
>> and have fun.
>>
>> I have no problem with a pilot "demoting" themselves to stay in the 
>> event
>> and have fun (so long as they don't end up perpetually at the top of 
>> their
>> new chosen class).
>>
>> I think very few people are interested in forcing a pilot to "move up"
>> simply because they accumulated enough points - pilots should move up 
>> when
>> they have aquired the skills to fly in the next class, and when they 
>> are
>> clearly superior to others in their class - ie, they are sand-baggers 
>> /
>> trophy hogs which I don't think are good for the event.
>>
>> The point system is rarely used - but I think it would be easy enough 
>> to
>> enforce - most NSRCA Districts track points for the annual District 
>> Champs
>> using some kind of system.  It wouldn't be too hard to use data 
>> captured
> in
>> the District Champs tracking to figure out AMA advancement points.  I
> think
>> we are fortunate that most pilots do move up at appropriate times, but
>> having a mechanism in place to pressure a few exceptions is a nice 
>> option
> to
>> have.  I would absolutely support using the AMA advancement point 
>> system
> to
>> force a pilot to move up who clearly belonged in a higher class, but
> stayed
>> put to be a trophy hog.
>>
>> To that end, I think the point system should remain on the books - and
> maybe
>> we could modify it such that it would be more likely to force trophy 
>> hogs
> to
>> move up, and less likely to ever push a career guy out of his class.
> There
>> are a number of ways that could be done.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement
>>
>>
>> I believe that this may open a different can of worms. It's true that 
>> some
>> guys attend contests simply for the fun and camaraderie of the 
>> flying, but
>> there is a whole nother set of troops that attends to compete. In my
>> opinion, this is the largest of the two, by wide margin. These folks 
>> want
> to
>> win, place or show and really try hard to do their best. The former 
>> group
>> may not care as much about doing its best; just being there is good
> enough.
>> But it is still an extremely important group nontheless.
>>
>> It seems to me that there are a bunch of guys, (Masters in D3 is a 
>> good
>> example) that are very good in their present class(most of us are 
>> quite
>> evenly matched), and some of these may decide to drop down a class and
> park
>> for a while. Taking that skill level down to Advanced could 
>> demoralize the
>> Advanced level guys that want to really compete, and could actually 
>> have
> the
>> exact opposite effect from that desired. I wouldn't want any Advanced
>> competitor to leave the sport because of an infusion of Masters class 
>> guys
>> re-entering the class
>>
>> We agree on the fact that the points system is silly and 
>> unenforceable.
>>
>> Having said all that, I wouldn't be aversed to a trial run of such a 
>> rule.
>> Reconvene after the trial period was over and make a decision on its
>> success--failure. Then make a final decision and have buy-in from the 
>> CB
> up
>> front to either make a change, or not. Having CB buy-in up front will
>> alleviate some of the acremonious debate we have seen in past issues.
>>
>> I recommend caution either way. This indeed is unchartered territory, 
>> at
>> least in my 27 years, and demands careful thought. I like the fact 
>> that
> the
>> committee is thinking in different and challenging ways to improve the
> sport
>> for everyone, eventhough THIS committee's charter is to build 
>> schedules
> and
>> not rules.
>>
>>
>> MattK
>>
>> PS- one more thought on this: it may turn out that no self respecting
>> Masters competitor will move down to Advanced, or Advanced down to
>> Intermediate. Then this suggested approach could work. Convincing the 
>> AMA
> CB
>> will be the trick
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 3/8/2005 4:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> patternrules at earthlink.net writes:
>> From: Troy A. Newman
>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> Sent: 3/8/2005 2:18:31 PM
>> Subject: [SPAM] Rules changes Advancement
>>
>>
>> Buddy,
>> I have been really quiet lately. I don't think the changes you are 
>> looking
>> at are going to increase pattern participation. The weight and box 
>> limits
>> in my opinion are good and don't need jacking with......
>>
>> I know you and Don are working hard at it. We on the sequence 
>> committee
> are
>> as well. I don't think changing the box is going to help us. I really
> don't
>> think changes to the weights or sizes is going to help us....
>>
>> I want to weigh in here so to speak on something that I feel will help
>> pattern grow in changes to the rule book. I feel most changes to the 
>> rule
>> book are going to make us more elite or a more secret way you have to 
>> do
>> things. Guys that are even in our ranks don't read the rules so why 
>> make
>> them even more specialized..and so on.
>>
>> BUT there is a single set of things in the book that I feel and others
> feel
>> need to be addressed.
>>
>> Advancement to the next class.
>>
>> I think we should just NIX all advancement rules. Let the pilot fly
>> whatever wants too and when ever he wants too. Let him jump around if
>> needed. The reason its not used. I have been from sea to shinning sea 
>> ATL
>> to CA and have never actually heard anybody keeping track of their 
>> points.
>> The AMA says its up to the pilot and they provide a little card to 
>> fill
>> out. I have been flying pattern since 86 and have never seen one of 
>> the
>> cards! Its not enforceable. There is no database to keep the records. 
>> It
>> takes too much time and energy. We spend our time and energy in other
>> places more rightfully so....So lets eliminate the advancement system.
>>
>> Reason #2 is we don't have the numbers we once had to push people up 
>> to
>> another class when they may not be ready. SO would we rather push a 
>> pilot
>> up to the next class and maybe out by peer pressure...... or have him
>> staying in the same class.
>>
>> My opinion is I don't care if Dave Brown himself came back and flew
>> Advanced. I think we could all benefit from him being a the contest 
>> and
>> participating in the events.
>>
>> Prime example I witnessed two district Champions last season move up 
>> to
> the
>> next class and neither one was ready to go. But they felt obligated 
>> to go
>> since they won the D champs. The reality was that they went to enough
>> contests to get the points. The reality also is they don't have the 
>> skills
>> they needed to learn in the previous class.
>>
>> Pattern is about perfection and precision. I see our pattern ranks 
>> getting
>> smaller and smaller and the skill sets getting weaker and weaker. The
> pilot
>> that survives the Intermediate sequence for a couple years maybe even 
>> wins
>> some stuff around locally then moves up. But the reality is just 
>> because
> he
>> won everything locally with maybe 2-3-4 pilot doesn't mean he is now 
>> ready
>> for the next show. The quality of flying in the lower classes seems 
>> to be
>> lower that it has been in the past. Our numbers seem to be much much 
>> lower
>> too. Pattern flying is about perfection and flying that perfect 
>> sequence.
> I
>> think if we eliminate the advancement stuff over time we will gain 
>> back
>> some of the old dogs for another run. And new pilots that have not 
>> learned
>> the required skills can get them before moving on. It has been 
>> brought up
>> that back in the old days pre-turnaround...a local guy would dust off 
>> his
>> model and support he clubs local event. Maybe if we let him fly 
>> whatever
> he
>> wants then we might get him to come back after 5-10 years off. This 
>> could
>> also could encourage new people. No pressure to move up. Enjoy the
>> competition at  a level you are comfortable. Right now we reward any
> margin
>> of success with more and more challenge. Maybe this pushes people 
>> away.
>> Many people in their lives are content to be right where they are. 
>> They
>> want to play and have fun with the group...but are not comfortable up 
>> with
>> the next group. WE SHOULD NOT TURN THEM AWAY!
>>
>> Some pilots will never be ready for a jump from Intermediate to 
>> advanced.
>> regardless of the current large steps between a couple classes. I feel
> that
>> there are some career Intermediate pilots like my father in-law 
>> Jerry. He
>> is one of the best pilots at his local club. He is the man for test
>> flights, and advice among the crowd. But He is happy and challenged 
>> with
>> Intermediate. He will continue to be happy and challenged with it for 
>> a
>> long time to come.
>>
>> The cheer from the crowd in the awards of the contest is always move
>> up...move up. Especially in Sportsman.Is pushing people away...in my 
>> mind.
>> We need to pat them on the back and say good job...not jump IN and get
>> eaten by the sharks.
>>
>> I think this defeats ourselves a little.
>>
>> If we let someone jump around classes and he got in too deep he could
>> always come back without AMA, DVP, and so on approval. Just fly what 
>> ever
>> class you want to fly!
>>
>> The question is would we rather have a guy sand bag a little and still
> have
>> him at an event or call him a trophy hog and push him out. This goes 
>> for
>> older more seasoned pilots as well. The guy is getting up there a 
>> little
> in
>> years like my buddy Pastorello <picking on you man I like to pick on 
>> Bob
>> because he fights back!>  and  flew at a very high level of 
>> competition
> but
>> now wants to not practice all the time...maybe doesn't have the best 
>> model
>> for the job....Let him move back from a masters to an advanced and fly
>> there. He has a bunch of knowledge and can help people at the events. 
>> Plus
>> sometimes he is even fun to fly with!
>>
>> Would we rather have him or Not?
>>
>> This does a couple things. Keeps the pilots that can't make it at the
>> higher level what ever the reason...and it also improves the skills 
>> of the
>> lower classes.  A newer pilot will have to be more prepared to win an
> event
>> and he will not readily jump to the next class as there is nobody to 
>> fly
>> against in the current class. Competition is a motivation factor. If 
>> a guy
>> is out there doing his two loops really well...then it will inspire 
>> the
>> another pilot to "work on my two loops because old Bob is going to 
>> kick my
>> butt when we get to the contest next week."
>>
>> For most people the biggest factor for them being here in Pattern 
>> today is
>> they wanted to learn to fly better. But that success and flying better
>> today pushes them into another class that is more difficult yet. You 
>> know
>> Mark Martin is still running the Busch Series and he has been a Cup
>> champion and Busch Champion before too. Even though many look at the 
>> Busch
>> and Truck series as a kind of minor leagues to the Cup cars.
>>
>> Just some thoughts
>>
>> TN
>>
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