Rules Changes----Advancement

[Ed Miller]

My vote would be for him to fly what ever class he is comfortable with.
Ed M.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Taylor" <twtaylor at ftc-i.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement


> Let me throw this at you guys for discussion then. You have a old time
> pattern pilot returning after almost 13 years off from the sport. He 
> didn't
> even fly for sport much. When the guy quit flying he'd just pointed out of
> advance into masters and flew a couple of contests in one year then quit.
> Now jumping back into the sport what class would you expect him to fly 
> now?
> Advanced? Intermediate? Why which class?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Lockhart" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:42 PM
> Subject: Fw: Rules Changes----Advancement
>
>
>> I agree with Matt that changes in this area should be made with caution.
>>
>> I like the idea that a pilot could fly a higher class for fun and to test
>> the waters, and then drop back to their regular class.
>>
>> I like the idea that somebody having an off year (reduced time or
> equipment
>> in a given year) can drop back a class to make it easier for them to
> compete
>> and have fun.
>>
>> I have no problem with a pilot "demoting" themselves to stay in the event
>> and have fun (so long as they don't end up perpetually at the top of 
>> their
>> new chosen class).
>>
>> I think very few people are interested in forcing a pilot to "move up"
>> simply because they accumulated enough points - pilots should move up 
>> when
>> they have aquired the skills to fly in the next class, and when they are
>> clearly superior to others in their class - ie, they are sand-baggers /
>> trophy hogs which I don't think are good for the event.
>>
>> The point system is rarely used - but I think it would be easy enough to
>> enforce - most NSRCA Districts track points for the annual District 
>> Champs
>> using some kind of system.  It wouldn't be too hard to use data captured
> in
>> the District Champs tracking to figure out AMA advancement points.  I
> think
>> we are fortunate that most pilots do move up at appropriate times, but
>> having a mechanism in place to pressure a few exceptions is a nice option
> to
>> have.  I would absolutely support using the AMA advancement point system
> to
>> force a pilot to move up who clearly belonged in a higher class, but
> stayed
>> put to be a trophy hog.
>>
>> To that end, I think the point system should remain on the books - and
> maybe
>> we could modify it such that it would be more likely to force trophy hogs
> to
>> move up, and less likely to ever push a career guy out of his class.
> There
>> are a number of ways that could be done.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement
>>
>>
>> I believe that this may open a different can of worms. It's true that 
>> some
>> guys attend contests simply for the fun and camaraderie of the flying, 
>> but
>> there is a whole nother set of troops that attends to compete. In my
>> opinion, this is the largest of the two, by wide margin. These folks want
> to
>> win, place or show and really try hard to do their best. The former group
>> may not care as much about doing its best; just being there is good
> enough.
>> But it is still an extremely important group nontheless.
>>
>> It seems to me that there are a bunch of guys, (Masters in D3 is a good
>> example) that are very good in their present class(most of us are quite
>> evenly matched), and some of these may decide to drop down a class and
> park
>> for a while. Taking that skill level down to Advanced could demoralize 
>> the
>> Advanced level guys that want to really compete, and could actually have
> the
>> exact opposite effect from that desired. I wouldn't want any Advanced
>> competitor to leave the sport because of an infusion of Masters class 
>> guys
>> re-entering the class
>>
>> We agree on the fact that the points system is silly and unenforceable.
>>
>> Having said all that, I wouldn't be aversed to a trial run of such a 
>> rule.
>> Reconvene after the trial period was over and make a decision on its
>> success--failure. Then make a final decision and have buy-in from the CB
> up
>> front to either make a change, or not. Having CB buy-in up front will
>> alleviate some of the acremonious debate we have seen in past issues.
>>
>> I recommend caution either way. This indeed is unchartered territory, at
>> least in my 27 years, and demands careful thought. I like the fact that
> the
>> committee is thinking in different and challenging ways to improve the
> sport
>> for everyone, eventhough THIS committee's charter is to build schedules
> and
>> not rules.
>>
>>
>> MattK
>>
>> PS- one more thought on this: it may turn out that no self respecting
>> Masters competitor will move down to Advanced, or Advanced down to
>> Intermediate. Then this suggested approach could work. Convincing the AMA
> CB
>> will be the trick
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 3/8/2005 4:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> patternrules at earthlink.net writes:
>> From: Troy A. Newman
>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> Sent: 3/8/2005 2:18:31 PM
>> Subject: [SPAM] Rules changes Advancement
>>
>>
>> Buddy,
>> I have been really quiet lately. I don't think the changes you are 
>> looking
>> at are going to increase pattern participation. The weight and box limits
>> in my opinion are good and don't need jacking with......
>>
>> I know you and Don are working hard at it. We on the sequence committee
> are
>> as well. I don't think changing the box is going to help us. I really
> don't
>> think changes to the weights or sizes is going to help us....
>>
>> I want to weigh in here so to speak on something that I feel will help
>> pattern grow in changes to the rule book. I feel most changes to the rule
>> book are going to make us more elite or a more secret way you have to do
>> things. Guys that are even in our ranks don't read the rules so why make
>> them even more specialized..and so on.
>>
>> BUT there is a single set of things in the book that I feel and others
> feel
>> need to be addressed.
>>
>> Advancement to the next class.
>>
>> I think we should just NIX all advancement rules. Let the pilot fly
>> whatever wants too and when ever he wants too. Let him jump around if
>> needed. The reason its not used. I have been from sea to shinning sea ATL
>> to CA and have never actually heard anybody keeping track of their 
>> points.
>> The AMA says its up to the pilot and they provide a little card to fill
>> out. I have been flying pattern since 86 and have never seen one of the
>> cards! Its not enforceable. There is no database to keep the records. It
>> takes too much time and energy. We spend our time and energy in other
>> places more rightfully so....So lets eliminate the advancement system.
>>
>> Reason #2 is we don't have the numbers we once had to push people up to
>> another class when they may not be ready. SO would we rather push a pilot
>> up to the next class and maybe out by peer pressure...... or have him
>> staying in the same class.
>>
>> My opinion is I don't care if Dave Brown himself came back and flew
>> Advanced. I think we could all benefit from him being a the contest and
>> participating in the events.
>>
>> Prime example I witnessed two district Champions last season move up to
> the
>> next class and neither one was ready to go. But they felt obligated to go
>> since they won the D champs. The reality was that they went to enough
>> contests to get the points. The reality also is they don't have the 
>> skills
>> they needed to learn in the previous class.
>>
>> Pattern is about perfection and precision. I see our pattern ranks 
>> getting
>> smaller and smaller and the skill sets getting weaker and weaker. The
> pilot
>> that survives the Intermediate sequence for a couple years maybe even 
>> wins
>> some stuff around locally then moves up. But the reality is just because
> he
>> won everything locally with maybe 2-3-4 pilot doesn't mean he is now 
>> ready
>> for the next show. The quality of flying in the lower classes seems to be
>> lower that it has been in the past. Our numbers seem to be much much 
>> lower
>> too. Pattern flying is about perfection and flying that perfect sequence.
> I
>> think if we eliminate the advancement stuff over time we will gain back
>> some of the old dogs for another run. And new pilots that have not 
>> learned
>> the required skills can get them before moving on. It has been brought up
>> that back in the old days pre-turnaround...a local guy would dust off his
>> model and support he clubs local event. Maybe if we let him fly whatever
> he
>> wants then we might get him to come back after 5-10 years off. This could
>> also could encourage new people. No pressure to move up. Enjoy the
>> competition at  a level you are comfortable. Right now we reward any
> margin
>> of success with more and more challenge. Maybe this pushes people away.
>> Many people in their lives are content to be right where they are. They
>> want to play and have fun with the group...but are not comfortable up 
>> with
>> the next group. WE SHOULD NOT TURN THEM AWAY!
>>
>> Some pilots will never be ready for a jump from Intermediate to advanced.
>> regardless of the current large steps between a couple classes. I feel
> that
>> there are some career Intermediate pilots like my father in-law Jerry. He
>> is one of the best pilots at his local club. He is the man for test
>> flights, and advice among the crowd. But He is happy and challenged with
>> Intermediate. He will continue to be happy and challenged with it for a
>> long time to come.
>>
>> The cheer from the crowd in the awards of the contest is always move
>> up...move up. Especially in Sportsman.Is pushing people away...in my 
>> mind.
>> We need to pat them on the back and say good job...not jump IN and get
>> eaten by the sharks.
>>
>> I think this defeats ourselves a little.
>>
>> If we let someone jump around classes and he got in too deep he could
>> always come back without AMA, DVP, and so on approval. Just fly what ever
>> class you want to fly!
>>
>> The question is would we rather have a guy sand bag a little and still
> have
>> him at an event or call him a trophy hog and push him out. This goes for
>> older more seasoned pilots as well. The guy is getting up there a little
> in
>> years like my buddy Pastorello <picking on you man I like to pick on Bob
>> because he fights back!>  and  flew at a very high level of competition
> but
>> now wants to not practice all the time...maybe doesn't have the best 
>> model
>> for the job....Let him move back from a masters to an advanced and fly
>> there. He has a bunch of knowledge and can help people at the events. 
>> Plus
>> sometimes he is even fun to fly with!
>>
>> Would we rather have him or Not?
>>
>> This does a couple things. Keeps the pilots that can't make it at the
>> higher level what ever the reason...and it also improves the skills of 
>> the
>> lower classes.  A newer pilot will have to be more prepared to win an
> event
>> and he will not readily jump to the next class as there is nobody to fly
>> against in the current class. Competition is a motivation factor. If a 
>> guy
>> is out there doing his two loops really well...then it will inspire the
>> another pilot to "work on my two loops because old Bob is going to kick 
>> my
>> butt when we get to the contest next week."
>>
>> For most people the biggest factor for them being here in Pattern today 
>> is
>> they wanted to learn to fly better. But that success and flying better
>> today pushes them into another class that is more difficult yet. You know
>> Mark Martin is still running the Busch Series and he has been a Cup
>> champion and Busch Champion before too. Even though many look at the 
>> Busch
>> and Truck series as a kind of minor leagues to the Cup cars.
>>
>> Just some thoughts
>>
>> TN
>>
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