Landing Direction; Spins, and Snaps. . .

[Jerry Stebbins]

Terry, you are being generous. I actually timed and recorded a bunch of them at the last contest and never saw a 15 sec. difference that could have been saved. I intend to do this at every contest this year, and send a data file to all the Contest Board members during the next rules cycle. I think the rationale used to support the current proposal was false and it never was backed up by real data.  Actually when you factored in the currently required maneuvers at TO, and at Landing, the overall total has to be longer. I guess they were allocating a large amount of time saved by the Gun and Go approach now being advocated/accepted.
Jerry
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Terry Terrenoire 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:18 PM
  Subject: Re: Landing Direction; Spins, and Snaps. . .


  Don: 

  I could not agree more! 

  We certainly ARE going to see a deterioration of these flight elements.

  As far as speeding up the contest, lets take a look.
  Average copntest today 24?? fliers. Maybe we save 15 seconds per TO. If using 2 lines, that saves a whopping 3 minutes per round. In four rounds on Sat you will save 12 minutes!!!!! That is ONE flight, maybe 2 Sportsman flights.
  OK, you say you save 30 seconds.........double it!!

  As to the safety issue, most fields have the pilots standing behind a barrier of some type, there is a caller to keep track, and in nearly 20 years of doing this, I have never seen anyone hit, yes, some reasonably close calls, but in reality even these were more scary than dangerous. The degrading of the TO and ldg scoring may even result in MORE of these scares!!

  IMHO!!

  Terry T.


  On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:26:45 EDT AtwoodDon at aol.com writes:
    Well, if we are going to this type scoring, I vote for a couple of throw out or King's X maneuvers per flight, pilot's choice of course.  Best 20 or so maneuvers counts?

    Seriously, I have been trying to catch up on the long list of emails pertaining to judging or not judging TO and Landings with a lot of good points made on both sidespertaining to faster contests and safer environments.  Maybe my grey hair is showing, but I guess I disagree with the comments about TO/landing not being aerobatic maneuvers, not important, etc.  My opinion is they are the most critical 2 maneuvers per flight and barring radio problems, probably are most responsible for aircraft damage at any contest.  Therefore, I think they should be judged (forcing the pilot to actually practice them) and quite frankly I believe they should have something greater than 1 as a multiplier.

    These two maneuvers require the pilot to control the aircraft in a rapidly changing airspeed situation and demonstrate control during those changes.  Takes all 4 control axis, etc.  Kind of a back to the basics opinion, but we have all seen the onset of the blast it into the air and hope it hits the runway when it comes down approach.  I for one do not believe this approach improves anything, may even cause more deterioration in actual 'flying' skills in our entry and mid-level classes.

    OK, let me get my fire suit button up here......  OK, I'm ready.....  ;-)

    Don Atwood

    In a message dated 6/13/2005 1:09:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, vanputte at cox.net writes:
      On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:26 PM, Cameron Smith wrote:

      > Top-Hats & Humpty Bumps also!!!  If you aint Hovering you aint flying! 
      > (Oops wrong discussion group;-)

      Well, as long as we're voting here, I vote for non-scored Diamond 8s in 
      the Master class.  Everyone should just admire the beauty of the 
      maneuver and not be critical and judgmental.

      Ron Van Putte

      >  
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: discussion-request at nsrca.org 
      > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
      > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 11:39 AM
      > To: discussion at nsrca.org
      > Subject: RE: Landing Direction; Spins, and Snaps. . .
      >  
      > I think we should stop scoring spins and snaps, also.  What do you 
      > guys think?? 
      >  
      >  
      >  
      > Keith L. Hoard
      > Cordova, TN
      > khoard at midsouth.rr.com
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >
      > From: discussion-request at nsrca.org 
      > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Black
      > Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:19 AM
      > To: discussion at nsrca.org
      > Subject: Re: Landing Direction
      >  
      > Marguerite,
      >  
      > Actually, I don't think you're alone on this issue. The NSRCA poll 
      > showed overwhelmingly that the membership wanted scored t/o and 
      > landings as did the public outcry after the majority's desires were 
      > disregarded. Apparently even the contest board would have voted to 
      > keep the old rule but the question was worded in such a way to confuse 
      > two of the contest board members.
      >  
      > Now that the new messed up rule has caused so much confusion I think 
      > everyone is getting so fed-up with it that many would rather have 
      > nothing at all than what we have now. To me this has more to do with 
      > being sick of all the ridiculous discussions than a real desire of 
      > pattern pilots to not score t/o and landings.
      >  
      > I for one have been paying attention to take-offs and landings this 
      > year and find it a real shame that we don't have those beautiful 
      > centered liftoffs and gentle climb outs. The new guys coming into 
      > sportsman will miss out on this discipline.
      >  
      > Keith
      >  
      >  
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: MargueriteVG at aol.com
      >> To: patternrules at earthlink.net ; discussion at nsrca.org
      >> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:58 AM
      >> Subject: Re: Landing Direction
      >>  
      >>  
      >> Good Morning...... oh oh  here goes...
      >>  I agree it is important to encourage good landings and take  and I 
      >> will add to your statement... why not all classes with take off and 
      >> landing.  Yes, for the most part the pilots in the higher classes 
      >> will ace the landing.   I have seen the higher classes mess up on the 
      >> landings (yes and almost hit me while I was in a contest flying)
      >>   Take off and landing perfectly all the time is the goal for any 
      >> pilot.  This seems to be getting so involved. I know I am out for the 
      >> most part alone on this issue and that is  fine with me.  ITs just 
      >> that I would like to see the pattern community respect this issue and 
      >> set a good example for all pilots joining on to Precision Aerobatics.
      >>   A well done take off and a well done landing is certainly part of 
      >> flying aerobatic competition in all classes. Its the start ... and it 
      >> should be.  I was glad to see someone out there was thinking along 
      >> the same lines here.
      >> Marguerite
      >>  
      >> In a message dated 6/13/2005 8:23:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
      >> patternrules at earthlink.net writes:
      >>>
      >>>  > Personally Jerry,  I'd like to see us score landings and take 
      >>> offs for
      >>>  Sportsman and Intermediate.  Given the k-factor of their total 
      >>> schedule
      >>>  it's a meaningful part, and the ability to land well in a high 
      >>> crosswind is
      >>>  something they'll need to be comfortable with, so it's worth 
      >>> rewarding ann
      >>>  motivating the practice required to do it well.




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