Scoring formula

Sun Jul 31 06:31:01 AKDT 2005

On Jul 31, 2005, at 7:31 AM, vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:

> The question is: how judges are selected to judge in the finals?  I 
> think a procedure needs to be develop.  I recognize that could be very 
> difficult task.

Usually, someone like Don Ramsey looks at the available pool of judges 
and picks the best ones.  Sometimes there isn't a very big pool of 
available judges; more like a puddle.  That was intended as a joke, but 
the reality is that, if pilots can't be flying in the finals, they 
often leave.

Ron Van Putte

>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>
>> >
>> > On Jul 30, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Cameron Smith wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thank you for all your efforts & whatever you release will be
>> > > appreciated.
>> >
>> > There seems to be some collective amnesia regarding the matrix 
>> system
>> > and judge ranking. Both were exhaustively discussed in the K-Factor 
>> in
>> > past years.
>> >
>> > I published many discussions of the matrix system in the K-Factor 
>> since
>> > 1997, usually just before the Nats, to allow competitors to know 
>> what
>> > to expect at the Nats.
>> >
>> > Since development of the NSRCA judge ranking system was initiated at
>> > the 2002 Nats NSRCA board meeting and implemented late in 2003, 
>> after
>> > approval by the NSRCA board, Don Ramsey has updated the rankings as 
>> new
>> > data became available. The ranking system requires at least five
>> > judges to be included in the ranking calculations and requires at 
>> least
>> > eight rounds of judging for a judge to be ranked with the top eight
>> > judges This means that only the Nats Master and F3A finals data and
>> > F3A Team Selection data can be used. There is a 'moving window' of
>> > allowable judging scores, which is included in the ranking, so that
>> > only current judging performances are included.
>> >
>> > The judge rankings were published in the K-Factor before last year's
>> > Nats. The top five judges were presented awards at last year's Nats.
>> > Judge rankings were published in the K-Factor after the Nats were 
>> over.
>> > There were changes in the rankings among the top eight. In 
>> particular,
>> > Don Ramsey moved ahead of Matt Kebabjian to take over the top spot. 
>> It
>> > was after this list was sent to AMA president Dave Brown, who sent 
>> the
>> > top five names forward, that Don was selected by the F3A organizers 
>> as
>> > one of the judges for the 2005 F3A World Championships.
>> >
>> > I hope this clears up some of the apparent confusion regarding the
>> > matrix system and NSRCA judge ranking system.
>> >
>> > Ron Van Putte
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> > > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> > > On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
>> > > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:26 AM
>> > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> > > Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> > >
>> > > I can't answer that just now. Some issues to resolve unrelated to 
>> the
>> > > judges.
>> > >
>> > > Don
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Cameron Smith"
>> > > To:
>> > > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:06 AM
>> > > Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Very Nice! Do you think the ranking number spread could be made
>> > > public?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> > > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> > >> On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
>> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:59 AM
>> > >> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> > >> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> > >>
>> > >> There will be judge evaluation done on the finals judges. 5 
>> judges is
>> > > a
>> > >>
>> > >> minimum to do any kind of reasonable evaluation. There are some
>> > >> software
>> > >> issues but they will be resolved and we will have numbers.
>> > >>
>> > >> Don
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Cameron Smith"
>> > >> To:
>> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:53 AM
>> > >> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Where there any Judge ranking numbers produced from this years 
>> NATS?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> > >> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> > >>> On Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:10 AM
>> > >>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> > >>> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I remember a Nats (a few years' back) when I *was* the toughest 
>> judge
>> > >> on
>> > >>> the
>> > >>> FAI line, both Prelims and Finals. I know because the CD came 
>> up and
>> > >>> told
>> > >>> me "you're being too hard". Okay. After it was all done, my 
>> higher
>> > >>> scores
>> > >>> tracked the overall placements of the standings pretty darn 
>> well. I
>> > >>> felt
>> > >>> pretty good about that, because there were some pretty 
>> high-falutin
>> > >>> judges
>> > >>> on my panel with me!!
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Then I learned - quite by accident - that my scores HAD been 
>> tossed.
>> > >>> EVERY
>> > >>> round that I sat there, doing my damndest to be consistent, 
>> fair, and
>> > >>> downgrade by the rulebook....in the heat and wind, only to 
>> learn that
>> > >> I
>> > >>> DID
>> > >>> NOT NEED TO BE THERE !!!!!
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Some stupid jerk actually had the gall to justify that by 
>> telling me
>> > >>> "since
>> > >>> your scores got tossed, that makes the other judges' scores more
>> > >>> accurate".
>> > >>> I didn't wring that guys' neck....but he also made it to my 
>> list of
>> > >>> "persons
>> > >>> likely to be left out of my will".... :-)
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Actually had someone ask me a couple years later, "Why don't 
>> you get
>> > >>> certified, Bob?"
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I'll put my judging consistency and skill up against 
>> anyone's.....
>> > > but
>> > >>> not
>> > >>> if it's gonna be thrown out later. As difficult as it is to 
>> train,
>> > >> and
>> > >>> then
>> > >>> *recruit* judges at big events, WHY would anyone want to toss 
>> their
>> > >>> efforts
>> > >>> in the trash???? Why bother to play at all, if there is no more
>> > >> value
>> > >>> placed on someone's best effort than that?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Bob Pastorello
>> > >>> www.rcaerobats.net
>> > >>> rcaerobob at cox.net
>> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>> From: "Atwood, Mark"
>> > >>> To:
>> > >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:16 PM
>> > >>> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I have to agree with Derek on this one, 100%.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The conventional thought on "throwing out Highs and lows" is 
>> that
>> > >> you'll
>> > >>> get rid of the spurious ZERO from some Snap-roll nazi along 
>> with the
>> > >>> gift "10" that the pilot's buddy awarded him. That could be 
>> true.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> But what really happens...the down side... Is that the toughest 
>> judge
>> > >> on
>> > >>> the panel...get's EVERY SCORE THROWN OUT... He might as well 
>> pack
>> > > up
>> > >>> and go home. Same is true for the "easy" judge. Forget about the
>> > >> fact
>> > >>> that they're consistent... Tossing Highs and Low's doesn't 
>> really
>> > >> care.
>> > >>> In fact...the more consistently "tough" they are...the more 
>> likely
>> > >> that
>> > >>> they wasted their time.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> TBL on the other hand looks at judges across the entire pool of
>> > >> flyers..
>> > >>> If a judge is consistently tough...fine. But if he's tough on 8
>> > >>> pilots...and easy on 2...it's going to catch it. Same goes for 
>> the
>> > >> easy
>> > >>> judge that's suddenly tough.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> > >> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> > >>> On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
>> > >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:30 PM
>> > >>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> > >>> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> > >>>
>> > >>> There is a big difference between TBLP and TBL. TBL does not 
>> change
>> > >>> individual maneuver scores at all - it may change the overall 
>> round
>> > >>> score
>> > >>> for a judge based on how that judge has scored other pilots and
>> > >> relative
>> > >>> to
>> > >>> that judges' scores compared to the other judges.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I have given explanations of what TBL is several times - certain
>> > >> people
>> > >>> are
>> > >>> set in their ways and will not open up their minds to 
>> understanding
>> > >>> statistical methods. I can equate TBL vs high-low throw out to
>> > >> people's
>> > >>> understanding of the impact on turnaround in pattern.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The problem with high-low discard is that you are eliminating 
>> the
>> > > work
>> > >>> of
>> > >>> 40% of your judges scores if 5 judges are used. Is that fair to 
>> the
>> > >>> judges
>> > >>> and pilots? TBL changes that by keeping about 90% of all judges
>> > >> scores.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
>> > >> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> > >>> On
>> > >>> Behalf Of Grow Pattern
>> > >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:13 PM
>> > >>> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> > >>> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Check this out I was researching TBL formulae and I ran across 
>> this.
>> > >> The
>> > >>> parallelisms of the full-size aerobatic world to our world are 
>> pretty
>> > >>> scary.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _ Eric
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