Scoring formula

Sat Jul 30 13:03:40 AKDT 2005

Bob,
You missed my point.  Because a judge is on the high side doesn't mean he is
mediocre.  I used to argue this point when we were reviewing people's
performance at work.  Human resources insisted that we rate people on a
standard deviation curve with the mean at average.  I argued that our people
were way above the folks that worked at Sears and that the distribution
should be around "above average".  We end up with the same ranking but
everyone feels better and is encouraged rather than discouraged.

It's like gymnastics where they use a tenth point system.  Everyone is in
the nine's unless they really screw up.  The really good scores are 9.6 and
up.  The guy who doesn't do too well is in the 8.8 to 9.2 range.  The whole
idea is to make your judging count while still arriving at the correct
finishing order.  You don't want your scores to get tossed out.  As long as
we keep the best four of six flights, etc., the low scoring judges will get
their work tossed out.
Jim O
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Pastorello" <rcaerobob at cox.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Scoring formula

> I stand by my original statement.
> If we're going to fatigue flyers further by requiring them to judge, too,
> the most minimally-courteous and respectful thing to do is USE the result
of
> their effort.
>
> If a "mediocre" judge is the one deciding the WINNER.... then we really
have
> a FAR greater problem in the game.
>
> Interesting thought, Jim.  Keep all the mediocre scores to decide the BEST
> flyer...... hmmmmmmm
>
> Bob Pastorello
> www.rcaerobats.net
> rcaerobob at cox.net
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "J.Oddino" <joddino at socal.rr.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>
>
> > Years ago we had a great judge who always judged on the high side.  Of
> > course everyone loved him.  When asked about it, he said he wanted to be
> > the
> > guy who decided who won the contest.  Even if they don't throw out the
> > high
> > and low judges they do throw out the low flights.  It does not pay (the
> > judge) to judge low.
> > Jim O
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Bob Pastorello" <rcaerobob at cox.net>
> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: Scoring formula
> >
> >
> >> I remember a Nats (a few years' back) when I *was* the toughest judge
on
> > the
> >> FAI line, both Prelims and Finals.  I know because the CD came up and
> >> told
> >> me "you're being too hard".  Okay.  After it was all done, my higher
> > scores
> >> tracked the overall placements of the standings pretty darn well.  I
felt
> >> pretty good about that, because there were some pretty high-falutin
> >> judges
> >> on my panel with me!!
> >>
> >> Then I learned - quite by accident - that my scores HAD been tossed.
> > EVERY
> >> round that I sat there, doing my damndest to be consistent, fair, and
> >> downgrade by the rulebook....in the heat and wind, only to learn that I
> > DID
> >> NOT NEED TO BE THERE !!!!!
> >>
> >> Some stupid jerk actually had the gall to justify that by telling me
> > "since
> >> your scores got tossed, that makes the other judges' scores more
> > accurate".
> >> I didn't wring that guys' neck....but he also made it to my list of
> > "persons
> >> likely to be left out of my will".... :-)
> >>
> >> Actually had someone ask me a couple years later, "Why don't you get
> >> certified, Bob?"
> >>
> >> I'll put my judging consistency and skill up against anyone's..... but
> >> not
> >> if it's gonna be thrown out later.  As difficult as it is to train, and
> > then
> >> *recruit* judges at big events, WHY would anyone want to toss their
> > efforts
> >> in the trash????   Why bother to play at all, if there is no more value
> >> placed on someone's best effort than that?
> >>
> >> Bob Pastorello
> >> www.rcaerobats.net
> >> rcaerobob at cox.net
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:16 PM
> >> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
> >>
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Derek on this one, 100%.
> >>
> >> The conventional thought on "throwing out Highs and lows" is that
you'll
> >> get rid of the spurious ZERO from some Snap-roll nazi  along with the
> >> gift "10" that the pilot's buddy awarded him.   That could be true.
> >>
> >> But what really happens...the down side... Is that the toughest judge
on
> >> the panel...get's EVERY SCORE THROWN OUT...   He might as well pack up
> >> and go home.   Same is true for the "easy" judge.  Forget about the
fact
> >> that they're consistent...  Tossing Highs and Low's doesn't really
care.
> >> In fact...the more consistently "tough" they are...the more likely that
> >> they wasted their time.
> >>
> >> TBL on the other hand looks at judges across the entire pool of
flyers..
> >> If a judge is consistently tough...fine.  But if he's tough on 8
> >> pilots...and easy on 2...it's going to catch it.  Same goes for the
easy
> >> judge that's suddenly tough.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
> >> On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:30 PM
> >> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> >> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
> >>
> >> There is a big difference between TBLP and TBL.  TBL does not change
> >> individual maneuver scores at all - it may change the overall round
> >> score
> >> for a judge based on how that judge has scored other pilots and
relative
> >> to
> >> that judges' scores compared to the other judges.
> >>
> >> I have given explanations of what TBL is several times - certain people
> >> are
> >> set in their ways and will not open up their minds to understanding
> >> statistical methods.  I can equate TBL vs high-low throw out to
people's
> >> understanding of the impact on turnaround in pattern.
> >>
> >> The problem with high-low discard is that you are eliminating the work
> >> of
> >> 40% of your judges scores if 5 judges are used.  Is that fair to the
> >> judges
> >> and pilots?  TBL changes that by keeping about 90% of all judges
scores.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
[mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
> >> On
> >> Behalf Of Grow Pattern
> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:13 PM
> >> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> >> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
> >>
> >> Check this out I was researching TBL formulae and I ran across this.
The
> >> parallelisms of the full-size aerobatic world to our world are pretty
> >> scary.
> >>
> >> _ Eric
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