Scoring formula

Sat Jul 30 14:31:09 AKDT 2005

The "one point per 15 degree" metric quantifies many downgrades (no - we 
haven't always had this) and, in most cases, removes the high and / or low 
judging standard if followed properly. While overall impression affects 
whether or not points are deducted for a lack of "smoothness and 
gracefulness", most everything else is now quantified.

I judged a good number of rollers at the Nats that didn't roll at all for 
the first 15 - 30 degrees, then stopped rolling for a similar number of 
degrees in the 2nd quadrant, then finished 30 to 45 degrees before center, 
that's 4-7 degrees off before any other elements (roundness, altitude, 
centering, smoothness, etc.) were considered. Many of these were quite 
smooth. I know that some received 2 - 3 scores from judges using the metric 
and 7 - 8 scores from those only looking for the impression of smoothness. 
The pilots that did rollers correctly (rightly) distanced themselves from 
the rest (I saw a few to be in the 8-9 range). A judge choosing to overlook 
defined downgrades and judging on impression shouldn't be in the judges 
chair.

Earl

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.Oddino" <joddino at socal.rr.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Scoring formula

> Bob,
> You missed my point.  Because a judge is on the high side doesn't mean he 
> is
> mediocre.  I used to argue this point when we were reviewing people's
> performance at work.  Human resources insisted that we rate people on a
> standard deviation curve with the mean at average.  I argued that our 
> people
> were way above the folks that worked at Sears and that the distribution
> should be around "above average".  We end up with the same ranking but
> everyone feels better and is encouraged rather than discouraged.
>
> It's like gymnastics where they use a tenth point system.  Everyone is in
> the nine's unless they really screw up.  The really good scores are 9.6 
> and
> up.  The guy who doesn't do too well is in the 8.8 to 9.2 range.  The 
> whole
> idea is to make your judging count while still arriving at the correct
> finishing order.  You don't want your scores to get tossed out.  As long 
> as
> we keep the best four of six flights, etc., the low scoring judges will 
> get
> their work tossed out.
> Jim O
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Pastorello" <rcaerobob at cox.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>
>
>> I stand by my original statement.
>> If we're going to fatigue flyers further by requiring them to judge, too,
>> the most minimally-courteous and respectful thing to do is USE the result
> of
>> their effort.
>>
>> If a "mediocre" judge is the one deciding the WINNER.... then we really
> have
>> a FAR greater problem in the game.
>>
>> Interesting thought, Jim.  Keep all the mediocre scores to decide the 
>> BEST
>> flyer...... hmmmmmmm
>>
>> Bob Pastorello
>> www.rcaerobats.net
>> rcaerobob at cox.net
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "J.Oddino" <joddino at socal.rr.com>
>> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>>
>>
>> > Years ago we had a great judge who always judged on the high side.  Of
>> > course everyone loved him.  When asked about it, he said he wanted to 
>> > be
>> > the
>> > guy who decided who won the contest.  Even if they don't throw out the
>> > high
>> > and low judges they do throw out the low flights.  It does not pay (the
>> > judge) to judge low.
>> > Jim O
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Bob Pastorello" <rcaerobob at cox.net>
>> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:10 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> >
>> >
>> >> I remember a Nats (a few years' back) when I *was* the toughest judge
> on
>> > the
>> >> FAI line, both Prelims and Finals.  I know because the CD came up and
>> >> told
>> >> me "you're being too hard".  Okay.  After it was all done, my higher
>> > scores
>> >> tracked the overall placements of the standings pretty darn well.  I
> felt
>> >> pretty good about that, because there were some pretty high-falutin
>> >> judges
>> >> on my panel with me!!
>> >>
>> >> Then I learned - quite by accident - that my scores HAD been tossed.
>> > EVERY
>> >> round that I sat there, doing my damndest to be consistent, fair, and
>> >> downgrade by the rulebook....in the heat and wind, only to learn that 
>> >> I
>> > DID
>> >> NOT NEED TO BE THERE !!!!!
>> >>
>> >> Some stupid jerk actually had the gall to justify that by telling me
>> > "since
>> >> your scores got tossed, that makes the other judges' scores more
>> > accurate".
>> >> I didn't wring that guys' neck....but he also made it to my list of
>> > "persons
>> >> likely to be left out of my will".... :-)
>> >>
>> >> Actually had someone ask me a couple years later, "Why don't you get
>> >> certified, Bob?"
>> >>
>> >> I'll put my judging consistency and skill up against anyone's..... but
>> >> not
>> >> if it's gonna be thrown out later.  As difficult as it is to train, 
>> >> and
>> > then
>> >> *recruit* judges at big events, WHY would anyone want to toss their
>> > efforts
>> >> in the trash????   Why bother to play at all, if there is no more 
>> >> value
>> >> placed on someone's best effort than that?
>> >>
>> >> Bob Pastorello
>> >> www.rcaerobats.net
>> >> rcaerobob at cox.net
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
>> >> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:16 PM
>> >> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I have to agree with Derek on this one, 100%.
>> >>
>> >> The conventional thought on "throwing out Highs and lows" is that
> you'll
>> >> get rid of the spurious ZERO from some Snap-roll nazi  along with the
>> >> gift "10" that the pilot's buddy awarded him.   That could be true.
>> >>
>> >> But what really happens...the down side... Is that the toughest judge
> on
>> >> the panel...get's EVERY SCORE THROWN OUT...   He might as well pack up
>> >> and go home.   Same is true for the "easy" judge.  Forget about the
> fact
>> >> that they're consistent...  Tossing Highs and Low's doesn't really
> care.
>> >> In fact...the more consistently "tough" they are...the more likely 
>> >> that
>> >> they wasted their time.
>> >>
>> >> TBL on the other hand looks at judges across the entire pool of
> flyers..
>> >> If a judge is consistently tough...fine.  But if he's tough on 8
>> >> pilots...and easy on 2...it's going to catch it.  Same goes for the
> easy
>> >> judge that's suddenly tough.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> >> On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:30 PM
>> >> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> >> Subject: RE: Scoring formula
>> >>
>> >> There is a big difference between TBLP and TBL.  TBL does not change
>> >> individual maneuver scores at all - it may change the overall round
>> >> score
>> >> for a judge based on how that judge has scored other pilots and
> relative
>> >> to
>> >> that judges' scores compared to the other judges.
>> >>
>> >> I have given explanations of what TBL is several times - certain 
>> >> people
>> >> are
>> >> set in their ways and will not open up their minds to understanding
>> >> statistical methods.  I can equate TBL vs high-low throw out to
> people's
>> >> understanding of the impact on turnaround in pattern.
>> >>
>> >> The problem with high-low discard is that you are eliminating the work
>> >> of
>> >> 40% of your judges scores if 5 judges are used.  Is that fair to the
>> >> judges
>> >> and pilots?  TBL changes that by keeping about 90% of all judges
> scores.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]
>> >> On
>> >> Behalf Of Grow Pattern
>> >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:13 PM
>> >> To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> >> Subject: Re: Scoring formula
>> >>
>> >> Check this out I was researching TBL formulae and I ran across this.
> The
>> >> parallelisms of the full-size aerobatic world to our world are pretty
>> >> scary.
>> >>
>> >> _ Eric
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