World Judge selection process

Mon Dec 13 09:47:10 AKST 2004

Eric,

I selectively responded to your email because your facts are wrong and you
have a habit of twisting things around to suit your cause.  Name calling?  I
don't think I am... I'm stating fact.

Let's respond to your questions.

Just a quick observation:  Since the NSRCA is a national organization that
focuses on pattern within the US why should the judge ranking system that
determines the US judge be voted on by anyone within the NSRCA?  Why are we
(meaning you and I, or anyone else for that matter) concerned about the
judge ranking system especially when it deals with the selection of a judge
for an FAI contest?  We aren't... And so therefore there wasn't a vote taken
on this process because this process does NOT affect pattern in the US at
all.

I can tell you that the NSRCA board and executives did not spend a whole lot
of time on the judge ranking system because there was no need to do so at
all.  As to the NSRCA board/executives focusing more on FAI than pattern - I
don't believe that is the case at all.  The NSRCA will sponsor a booth at
any trade show to showcase pattern and to attract new members, it will also
pay for a pattern primer event that local districts can put on to attract
new members as well.  These are all well documented and the board/execs are
fully aware of these.

I am not a fan of combining the team trials with the Nats... I voiced my
opinion on this when it was proposed the last time.  I still think the team
selection should be a separate contest as I feel that combining it with the
Nats makes it seem that the Nats is more for the F3A pilots when it isn't.
It also hurt some very good pilots that had the team trials been run in a
traditional way, these good pilots may have made the finals and possibly the
team, or become an alternate.

Did I answer your questions?

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Grow Pattern
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:51 AM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: World Judge selection process 

Derek,
             I knew that you would hack up and selectively respond to any
fault that you could find in whatever I wrote.

Just be aware that I don't like you calling me names or making derogatory
remarks in private or on any e-mail list.  As a potential president of the
NSRCA I would ask you to respect the list standards and not use expressions
like "bull in a china shop" or accuse me of  "open mouth - insert foot"? 
Instead try and address the issues.

You issued an invitation for questions from members, How about,

1. "When and where was it voted on that the NSRCA use this system?

2. Did the 12 person NSRCA board decide to use it.

3. Was the membership polled.

4. Is the NSRCA more focused on FAI issues than programs for growing the
sport and the membership. How about diverting some energy into that area?

Eric Henderson.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at earthlink.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 11:53 AM
Subject: RE: World Judge selection process

> First off Eric... One TINY little clarification.  The judge evaluation
> system that was developed by RVP, Matt Kebabjian, with input from several
> others is NOT based on TBL at all.  BTW, TBL does NOT rank judges... TBL
> ranks pilots - there isn't a TBL judge ranking system.  Period.  If you 
> have
> a problem with TBL then you obviously don't understand it, nor do you
> understand the calculations involved.  Instead of the "bull in a china 
> shop"
> comment - how about "open mouth - insert foot"?
>
> Charlie:  I have no idea why you think I had anything to do with the judge
> ranking system... I do support it as it gives us a quantifiable way to
> measure judges instead of the "good old boy" way it has been done in the
> past.  Don Ramsey is more than qualified to represent the US at the WC 
> next
> year, as are several other people that were on that list (including Bob
> Noll, Mike Dumpy (sic), Earl Haury, etc.).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Grow Pattern
> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 7:31 AM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: World Judge selection process
>
> Charlie,
>              I had and have absolutely NOTHING to do with this judging
> evaluation system. You were probably misinformed so please allow me to
> correct/update the information.
>
> FYI - I nominated Bob Noll to the AMA when Dave Brown asked the NSRCA for
> its recommendation. It felt like a good choice. I selected him and two
> others after asking for nominations from the NSRCA District-VP's and the
> rest of the NSRCA board. He was chosen for his work as a judge, the work
> done running many judging schools, great services to the NSRCA and
> especially the AMA after running three USA Nationals etc.
>
> At the time I was overruled by Dave Brown who chose Mike Dumpy, (for 
> similar
> reasons). Subsequently, Dave chose Bob after Mike had represented the USA 
> on
> two occasions. (Very well I might add).
>
> The ranking system was put together by RVP and associates to prove to Dave
> who he should submit to the FAI for WC judge consideration. I am guessing
> that lobbying took place to remove Bob Noll and insert the top TBL rated 
> USA
> judge.
>
> I have several issues with the TBL type of judges ranking.
>
> 1. The biggest is that it is too easy for a judge to do well by scoring in

> a
> popular way or an "average" way. The guy who knows enough about judging to
> give the correct low score will often be on the "out".
>
> 2. Also they included judging performances from Master's Nat's. There is 
> big
> difference scoring FAI and Masters. Not least of which is the 1/2 point 
> vs.
> the whole point system.
>
> 3. They used the performance in 8 contests (As far as I know). Scoring 
> rules
> and maneuver standards change. To get eight Nationals/team trials you have
> to go back a few years. I have always believed that only the last few 
> years
> of FAI judging should be used because they are the most relevant to
> performance.
>
> 4. It does not take into account the intangibles such as, Statesmanship,
> ambassadorial qualities and contribution that will be needed in a WC
> environment.
>
> One further point. I also think that Don Ramsey is a great guy and should
> not get any flack for being selected. He was the guy I went to and asked 
> to
> form the current rules/judging committee. He has helped clarify many rules
> for us and dealt with many tough issues in a calm and professional manner.
>
> I have always been an opponent of the ranking system. The problem is that
> when you speak out against something that people are "married" to,
> especially when they are the creators of the system, you will, and I have,
> draw a lot of abuse. I fully expect my note to be cropped, chopped, torn
> apart, dissected and corrected. I might even get another "Bull in a china
> shop" comment reward. Of course I might just look like that to some,
> especially when I am in their face and won't back down when I see 
> something
> going on that I believe is wrong!
>
> I credit you for speaking out Charlie, but I just had to set the record
> straight when you used my name.
>
> Regards,
>
> Eric Henderson.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rock, Charles" <crock at kclife.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:10 AM
> Subject: RE: [SUSPECT-HEADER] - Re: Adjustable stab weight - Character set
> not allowed (n/a)
>
>
>> Well here is another example of the results of the fox designing the
>> chicken coop! Don Ramsey knew exactly what he had to do to become the
>> top ranked judge as did Ron V., Derek K., and Eric H., need I tell you
>> who all were involved making the judges ranking system?? THIS PISSES
>> ME OFF...The "Haves" get all the beanies, and we pay their way too,
>> most likely..Another NSRCA moment!! Charlie
>
>
> =================================================
> To access the email archives for this list, go to
> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
> and follow the instructions.
>
>
>
> =================================================
> To access the email archives for this list, go to
> http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
> To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
> and follow the instructions.
> 

=================================================
To access the email archives for this list, go to
http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/
To be removed from this list, go to http://www.nsrca.org/discussionA.htm
and follow the instructions.