Extreme Weight Savings [was: ES Composite Pipe Repair]

[Wayne Galligan]

Don Ramsey has a very informative list of material weights on his website.
Now if I could just figure out how much all this putty and epoxy filler
weights.

Wayne G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Budd" <jbudd at QNET.COM>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:53 AM
Subject: Extreme Weight Savings [was: ES Composite Pipe Repair]


> Sure Del, like most things I just have to find (make) time to do it.
>
> Don Ramsey also has me on the hook for an article on some judging
> issues I noticed at the Nats.
>
> Anybody want to build an Excellence for me while I'm busy writing
> these articles?   :-)
>
> Thx, Jerry
>
>
> >Jerry.
> >      In all seriousness would you consider submitting for
> >publication your efforts? I for one would be very interested as many
> >others I suspect. Mark Sheda did such many years ago and think it
> >may be time to revisit that issue to the extreme you mention.
> >
> >      Del K. Rykert
> >      AMA - 8928
> >      NSRCA - 473
> >      Kb2joi - General
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <mailto:jbudd at QNET.COM>Jerry Budd
> >To: <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:27 AM
> >Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
> >
> >Hey Ed,
> >
> >Nobody is better qualified to speak to this than I.  I absolutely
> >killed myself to get my E=MC3 down to make weight at this years Nats.
> >A month prior my E=MC3 weighed 11 lbs, 12 oz.  I had Dick Hanson
> >build me a new set of wings to get within a couple of ounces and then
> >I started looking at weight on a gram by gram basis at the component
> >level.  At the courtesy weighing on Sunday at the Nats I was 18 grams
> >over weight.  I then took 2.3 ounces of weight out of the airplane
> >and I exactly made weight at the weight checks late Wed and also
> >after the finals on Thurs.  I'll leave the math to those who feel
> >compelled to check my numbers (Hint: no, it doesn't add up!  BTW -
> >Did you know that a standard JR switch harness/charge jack assembly
> >w/screws weighs 1 ounce?).  Last year I pulled 11 ounces out of a
> >Gator G202 to get under weight for the Nats but it didn't matter
> >since I had engine problems on Monday.  Maybe I should write an
> >article sometime on how to REALLY get serious about getting the
> >weight out of an obese airplane?
> >
> >Anyway, my experience with the carbon fiber pipes is that they are
> >the second easiest/quickest way to save weight at the component level
> >via substitution (changing from an aluminum wing tube to a carbon
> >fiber tube is the first, wheels are third, and the fuel tank comes
> >fourth).  Of course weight gain due to exhaust soak can be an issue
> >with some of the more porous composite pipes (like the Bolly) but
> >IMHO it is nonexistent with the ES pipes.
> >
> >As far as the problems with inlet temperature I haven't seen this
> >when running a 2-stroke motor so I'd have to say that it's one of
> >those costs associated with running a 4-stroke.  My ES pipes are now
> >3 years old and in nearly perfect operating condition (I've been
> >4-stroke free since 2000).
> >
> >Jerry
> >
> >
> >>You wouldn't believe the lengths ( read $$ and time ) I went to to
> >>shave mere grams from my EMC. The ES pipe I have weighs exactly 3
> >>oz. I'm all for the durability and cost reduction of an aluminum
> >>pipe over unobtainium, but that ounce plus is sure hard to find
> >>elsewhere.
> >>Ed M.
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From:
>
>><<mailto:Rcmaster199 at aol.com>Rcmaster199 at aol.com>mailto:Rcmaster199 at aol.co
m>Rcmaster199 at aol.com
> >>To:
>
>><<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsrca
.org>discussion at nsrca.org
> >>Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:35 PM
> >>Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
> >>
> >>Maybe it's me but I just don't get this apparent love affair
> >>with the carbon pipes. Epoxy as the binder, as Gray states, is
> >>marginal in almost all 4 stroke cases I have heard about. And to
> >>make these things super light, you have got to make then thin, so
> >>strength is doubly compromised, especially on four strokes with
> >>their 500+ degree stack temp.
> >>
> >>A hi temp plastic binder such as a PTFE emulsion, or maybe polyimide
> >>emulsion is a better alternative but then the cost would be 2x and
> >>impractical.  And ceramics, aka Space Shuttle heat shield tiles, are
> >>out of this world (sorry Gray, I couldn't resist)
> >>
> >>How much weight is actually saved over a "lightweight"ally pipe
> >>anyway? The Greves is a little over 4 ounces, the Macs 20 cc is a
> >  >little over 5 ounces and the Hatori is a little over 6. Are we
> >>talking, what, 4 ounces tops?? Isn't there someplace else one could
> >>remove 2 to 4 ounces?
> >>
> >>Hey, I am a big proponent of progress and composites offer great
> >>advantages in the correct places, but I have to question if this is
> >>one of these places
> >>
> >>Firesuit..... hell forget the firesuit> I'm thick skinned enough,
> >>literaly, so fire away
> >>
> >>matt K
> >>
> >>>Subj:Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
> >>>Date:9/23/2003 6:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>
>>>From:<<mailto:edbon85 at optonline.net>edbon85 at optonline.net>mailto:edbon85@
optonline.net>edbon85 at optonline.net
>
>>>Reply-to:<<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discus
sion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>
>>>To:<<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at n
srca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
> >>>Sent from the Internet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Gray, I'm listening. A short lived $200 plus pipe is not affordable
> >>>either. Short of going back to aluminum and the weight penalty, do
> >>>we have another alternative ??
> >>>Ed M.
> >>>
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From:
> >>>><<mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com>Gray>mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com>Gray
> >>>>E Fowler
> >>>>To:
>
>>>><<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsr
ca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:40 PM
> >>>>Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Concerning this repair, there is not a commercially available
> >>>>adhesive that is going to do the job long term. The adhesive I
> >>>>used on Wayne's pipe is an aerospace grade epoxy called Hysol
> >>>>9394, rated at 350F. AT 350F this epoxy exhibits about 25% of its
> >>>>room temperature strength-and this is about the best room
> >>>>temperature curing high temp epoxy available-in short  all the
> >>>>stuff such as JB weld is crap at the temperatures we are talking
> >>>>about. The inlet temp of our mufflers makes for a brutal
> >>>>environment and unfortunately anything that cures at room
> >>>>temperature just is not going to do the job very well. In reality
> >>>>Hysol 9394 is borderline. No easy answer here, and is evident by
> >>>>the constant postings about burned out inlets....there is a
> >>>>problem with the composite mufflers.  Actually there is an answer,
> >>>>but I do not think our pattern market can afford it.
> >
> >
> >--
> >___________
> >Jerry Budd
> ><mailto:jbudd at qnet.com>mailto:jbudd at qnet.com
> >=====================================
> ># To be removed from this list, send a message to
> ># <mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org>discussion-request at nsrca.org
> ># and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> >#
>
>
> -- 
> ___________
> Jerry Budd
> mailto:jbudd at qnet.com
> =====================================
> # To be removed from this list, send a message to
> # discussion-request at nsrca.org
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>
>


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