Extreme Weight Savings [was: ES Composite Pipe Repair]

[Jerry Budd]

Sure Del, like most things I just have to find (make) time to do it.

Don Ramsey also has me on the hook for an article on some judging 
issues I noticed at the Nats.

Anybody want to build an Excellence for me while I'm busy writing 
these articles?   :-)

Thx, Jerry


>Jerry.
>      In all seriousness would you consider submitting for 
>publication your efforts? I for one would be very interested as many 
>others I suspect. Mark Sheda did such many years ago and think it 
>may be time to revisit that issue to the extreme you mention.
>
>      Del K. Rykert
>      AMA - 8928
>      NSRCA - 473
>      Kb2joi - General
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:jbudd at QNET.COM>Jerry Budd
>To: <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:27 AM
>Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
>
>Hey Ed,
>
>Nobody is better qualified to speak to this than I.  I absolutely
>killed myself to get my E=MC3 down to make weight at this years Nats.
>A month prior my E=MC3 weighed 11 lbs, 12 oz.  I had Dick Hanson
>build me a new set of wings to get within a couple of ounces and then
>I started looking at weight on a gram by gram basis at the component
>level.  At the courtesy weighing on Sunday at the Nats I was 18 grams
>over weight.  I then took 2.3 ounces of weight out of the airplane
>and I exactly made weight at the weight checks late Wed and also
>after the finals on Thurs.  I'll leave the math to those who feel
>compelled to check my numbers (Hint: no, it doesn't add up!  BTW -
>Did you know that a standard JR switch harness/charge jack assembly
>w/screws weighs 1 ounce?).  Last year I pulled 11 ounces out of a
>Gator G202 to get under weight for the Nats but it didn't matter
>since I had engine problems on Monday.  Maybe I should write an
>article sometime on how to REALLY get serious about getting the
>weight out of an obese airplane?
>
>Anyway, my experience with the carbon fiber pipes is that they are
>the second easiest/quickest way to save weight at the component level
>via substitution (changing from an aluminum wing tube to a carbon
>fiber tube is the first, wheels are third, and the fuel tank comes
>fourth).  Of course weight gain due to exhaust soak can be an issue
>with some of the more porous composite pipes (like the Bolly) but
>IMHO it is nonexistent with the ES pipes.
>
>As far as the problems with inlet temperature I haven't seen this
>when running a 2-stroke motor so I'd have to say that it's one of
>those costs associated with running a 4-stroke.  My ES pipes are now
>3 years old and in nearly perfect operating condition (I've been
>4-stroke free since 2000).
>
>Jerry
>
>
>>You wouldn't believe the lengths ( read $$ and time ) I went to to
>>shave mere grams from my EMC. The ES pipe I have weighs exactly 3
>>oz. I'm all for the durability and cost reduction of an aluminum
>>pipe over unobtainium, but that ounce plus is sure hard to find
>>elsewhere.
>>Ed M.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: 
>><<mailto:Rcmaster199 at aol.com>Rcmaster199 at aol.com>mailto:Rcmaster199 at aol.com>Rcmaster199 at aol.com
>>To: 
>><<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:35 PM
>>Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
>>
>>Maybe it's me but I just don't get this apparent love affair
>>with the carbon pipes. Epoxy as the binder, as Gray states, is
>>marginal in almost all 4 stroke cases I have heard about. And to
>>make these things super light, you have got to make then thin, so
>>strength is doubly compromised, especially on four strokes with
>>their 500+ degree stack temp.
>>
>>A hi temp plastic binder such as a PTFE emulsion, or maybe polyimide
>>emulsion is a better alternative but then the cost would be 2x and
>>impractical.  And ceramics, aka Space Shuttle heat shield tiles, are
>>out of this world (sorry Gray, I couldn't resist)
>>
>>How much weight is actually saved over a "lightweight"ally pipe
>>anyway? The Greves is a little over 4 ounces, the Macs 20 cc is a
>  >little over 5 ounces and the Hatori is a little over 6. Are we
>>talking, what, 4 ounces tops?? Isn't there someplace else one could
>>remove 2 to 4 ounces?
>>
>>Hey, I am a big proponent of progress and composites offer great
>>advantages in the correct places, but I have to question if this is
>>one of these places
>>
>>Firesuit..... hell forget the firesuit> I'm thick skinned enough,
>>literaly, so fire away
>>
>>matt K
>>
>>>Subj:Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
>>>Date:9/23/2003 6:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>From:<<mailto:edbon85 at optonline.net>edbon85 at optonline.net>mailto:edbon85 at optonline.net>edbon85 at optonline.net
>>>Reply-to:<<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>>>To:<<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>>>Sent from the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Gray, I'm listening. A short lived $200 plus pipe is not affordable
>>>either. Short of going back to aluminum and the weight penalty, do
>>>we have another alternative ??
>>>Ed M.
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: 
>>>><<mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com>Gray>mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com>Gray 
>>>>E Fowler
>>>>To: 
>>>><<mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org>mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>discussion at nsrca.org
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:40 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: ES Composite Pipe Repair
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Concerning this repair, there is not a commercially available
>>>>adhesive that is going to do the job long term. The adhesive I
>>>>used on Wayne's pipe is an aerospace grade epoxy called Hysol
>>>>9394, rated at 350F. AT 350F this epoxy exhibits about 25% of its
>>>>room temperature strength-and this is about the best room
>>>>temperature curing high temp epoxy available-in short  all the
>>>>stuff such as JB weld is crap at the temperatures we are talking
>>>>about. The inlet temp of our mufflers makes for a brutal
>>>>environment and unfortunately anything that cures at room
>>>>temperature just is not going to do the job very well. In reality
>>>>Hysol 9394 is borderline. No easy answer here, and is evident by
>>>>the constant postings about burned out inlets....there is a
>>>>problem with the composite mufflers.  Actually there is an answer,
>>>>but I do not think our pattern market can afford it.
>
>
>--
>___________
>Jerry Budd
><mailto:jbudd at qnet.com>mailto:jbudd at qnet.com
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-- 
___________
Jerry Budd
mailto:jbudd at qnet.com
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