Control horns, is it just me or... ?

[Michael Ramsey]

Agreed. Perhaps the arm is all that you would need.

Michael...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Black" <tkeithb at comcast.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: Control horns, is it just me or... ?


> That looks quite interesting. I do have a couple of concerns however.
>
> Given that the mounting plate (foot) is perpendicular to the arm when the
> arm is mounted on a control surface with an air foil shape the arm will
> actually be pointing backwards away from the hinge line. To avoid this one
> would either need to prop up the back side of the mounting plate or recess
> the front of the plate down into the control surface. With this particular
> design it seems that you'd have to cut pretty deeply into the control
> surface on the leading edge to get the arm to be perpendicular to the
hinge
> line.
>
> Second concern is that the arm is not located on the edge of the mounting
> plate, which means that it would be moved back a bit from the bevel thus
> offsetting the advantage of the longer arm.
>
> I promise I'm not trying to be difficult ;-)
>
> Keith Black
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Ramsey" <michaelr at flying-models.com>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
>
>
> > http://www.radioactivemfg.com/horns.htm
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Black" <tkeithb at comcast.net>
> > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
> >
> >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > You make a good point about the ZNLine horns not being adjustable in
> > height.
> > >
> > > Honestly, if I could just find some longer arms to go on the IM horns
> that
> > > would solve the problem. It's surprising to me how many manufactures
> have
> > > not considered this, especially since pull-pull has been such a big
deal
> > for
> > > a while now.
> > >
> > > One reason I'm being picky about this is that on this plane I was
> > > considering using pull-pull on the elevator and rudder. That means
three
> > > different surfaces (two elevator halves and the rudder) need the
> > connection
> > > point over the hinge. This also rules out angling the horn arm since
the
> > > opposite side would stick out the wrong direction. Since, I'll be
doing
> > this
> > > on three surfaces I'd prefer to use a product that's designed to do
the
> > job
> > > rather than trying to make something work that wasn't designed to
solve
> > the
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > Thanks for you input, you made some good points.
> > >
> > > Keith Black
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Koenig, Tom" <Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au>
> > > To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:33 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Keith,
> > > > Try a smaller bevel...but do both sides of the hinge line.
> > > >
> > > > I do it much like Gerald. I use 3 mm stainless steel rod however for
> my
> > > > horns. I make sure the threads are rolled threads and not cut. I
bevel
> > > both
> > > > sides of the hinge line, and then I spend a little time on the lathe
> and
> > > > make up a little 'cone' style rod supports, much like what you now
see
> > on
> > > > the IM hardware.
> > > >
> > > > I prefer the threaded rod style 'horns'. The fine metric thread can
> give
> > > you
> > > > very precise adjustments when setting up a model. I do it all
> > mechanically
> > > > first. I find then that the 'electronic' adjustment is only a few
> > percent
> > > > either way. Sometimes I 'turn' my threaded rod by only a 1/4 of a
turn
> > to
> > > > get the exact throw I'm after, then I'll glue and lock it down.
> > > > Infact I have found great variations in accuracy in the actual
servos
> > this
> > > > way.
> > > >
> > > > I guess thats one advantage some sponsored flyers have..they can go
> > > through
> > > > a pile of servos to "match" them as close as possible to each other.
> > > >
> > > > I too have used the ZN, PL horns....but they limit you to the height
> of
> > > the
> > > > horn. There is only one place to mount your clevis. I find I cannot
> get
> > > the
> > > > mechanical adjustment I require from this style of horn...but they
> sure
> > > look
> > > > nice! Impractical in my book however. I just cannot maximise the
> > > resolution
> > > > of my radio using this style of horn.
> > > >
> > > > There are some plastic arms out there that measure 8mm from
centerline
> > to
> > > > the pivot hole. I buy them from our local shop...BUT...they only
come
> as
> > > > part of  an aileron torque rod set up. I believe they are a British
> > brand.
> > > > The make is RADIOACTIVE. I really cant help you much more than that.
I
> > am
> > > > unaware of a website for them ( I have not looked yet!). I just use
> the
> > > > arms. The torque rods end up getting twisted into "art" <BG> by my
> three
> > > > year old!
> > > >
> > > > If you get really stuck, I''ll ask what I can at our local shop.
> Failing
> > > > that , I can try and send some to you if  you are desperate. Just
> > remember
> > > > I'm down here in the land of Aussies, so it too is a long way!
> > > >
> > > > Good luck and zap me offline if you need any further help.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > From: Keith Black[SMTP:tkeithb at comcast.net]
> > > > > Reply To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2003 13:49
> > > > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerald, thanks for the reply, your description was quite clear.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you deal with the pull-pull horns for the rudder
(especially
> > > > > considering that the rudder has a larger bevel to allow larger
> > > > > deflection)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Keith
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: GW
> > > > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:31 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
> > > > >
> > > > > What I do on ailerons and elev.
> > > > >
> > > > > Install 1/2" dowel in surface. starting roughly 1/8" from LE
bevel.
> > > > > Set up drill press plate for a 10 degree table tilt.
> > > > > Tape moveable surface into the aileron(elev) cutout shuck (bottom
of
> > > > > surface up) WIth it in its shuck and the 10 degree angle on the
> Press,
> > > > > drill 1/8 hole through the Dowel starting at about the top of the
> > > beveled
> > > > > surface . This will put the exit near the rear of the dowel on the
> top
> > > of
> > > > > surface, but it does not matter. Shoot a 6/32 hardened bolt though
> the
> > > > > dowel, It will be tight, but thats what were looking for, let it
tap
> > its
> > > > > own threads as your run it in. Go about 3/4 the way into the
surface
> > and
> > > > > stop. cutoff the excess with the cutoff wheel.
> > > > > Attach your favorite aileron connector and clevis now, and you
will
> > > > > be very close to the hingeline.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or you can do as a majority do, and dont worry about it. Youcan
use
> > > > > your CRC meter to get the deflections the same. Our really neat
> > computer
> > > > > radios have taken alot of the need to build perfect out of the
> > equation.
> > > > > I like to do it right myself, but thats just me.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is just one way to do it with minimal trouble, and less
> > > > > expense. Im sure others will have a better approach that works for
> > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can draw CorelDraw or ACAD file that would illustrate this
better
> > > > > if anyone has an interest.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > GW
> > > > > Gerald Williams
> > > > > Email : gw at gwair.com
> > > > > Webpage: www.gwair.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Support Tony Stillman District 5 VP
> > > > > http://webpages.charter.net/nneville/nneville/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Keith Black
> > > > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:57 PM
> > > > > Subject: Control horns, is it just me or... ?
> > > > >
> > > > > When it comes to control horns for pattern planes it seems
> > > > > to me that some of the most commonly used choices have a major
flaw.
> > > > >
> > > > > On my last plane I used the MK Aluminum Horns on all
> > > > > surfaces except for the rudder where I used the IM pull-pull
horns.
> > Both
> > > > > of these are nice horns except they have a major flaw when using a
> > > > > pull-pull setup. The flaw is that the little black plastic arm
that
> > > screws
> > > > > onto the horn and connects to the clevis is so short that it
doesn't
> > > > > extend out over the hinge line. I know that with pull-pull systems
> it
> > > > > isn't *absolutely* necessary for the connection to be exactly
above
> > the
> > > > > hinge, but the further back it is the more slack there will be in
> the
> > > > > cable that is not pulling.  In my opinion with these horns the
> > > connection
> > > > > point is too far away from the hinge unless the horn is virtually
> > > mounted
> > > > > on the control surface bevel (especially when it comes to rudder).
> > This
> > > > > can easily be seen in these "instructions" for installing the MK
> horns
> > > > >
http://www.centralhobbies.com/buildingtips/mkhorns/mkhornsinst.html.
> > > > > Notice that in this picture there surface isn't beveled yet and
the
> > horn
> > > > > is almost on the edge.
> > > > >
> > > > > On my new plane I wanted to avoid this problem so I did some
> > > > > searching to find a better solution. To begin with I looked for a
> > longer
> > > > > arm to connect to the MK horn, one that would extend out to the
> hinge
> > > > > line. I found two options from Sullivan but both require too big
of
> a
> > > horn
> > > > > thread (6-32 and 8-32). My search then led me to two other choices
> > that
> > > > > seem to be good alternatives. The first is the ZNLine aluminum
> control
> > > > > horns, but these are apparently only distributed by ZNLine (
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.znline.com/produits.php?langue=english&cle_menus=1025879382&cle
> > > > > _data=1025901639) which means an international order. The other
> > solution
> > > > > I've found is by RC Model Enterprises (
> > > > > http://home.att.net/~rc-enterprises/rcme_014.htm) but these
control
> > > horns
> > > > > seem very pricey!
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone could point me to a longer 3mm connecting arm that
> > > > > will fit on the MK and IM horns I'd be happy (BTW, I've used the
MK
> BB
> > > > > connectors on the MK horn and they still aren't really long
enough).
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it just me, or have others experienced this dilemma as
> > > > > well?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Keith Black
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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