[NSRCA-dist8] NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 114, Issue 6
Patrick Harris
harris7148 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 26 10:52:29 AKST 2022
Form what I can tell, Andrew and AC are sticking with 21 x 13 props to eliminate a variable. They are adjusting the windings on their 12’s motor to match the power (watts) as their 10’s.
As an aside. Several of you are aware I built two identical Excess Bipes for Andrew ages ago. He is finally getting them in the air. He has set up one with 10’s and the other with 12’s. They came in really light and almost the same at 3,600 and 3,620 minus packs. He has one on the air. It will be interesting to see the results.
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By the way, on the second picture, the Proteus bipe came in at 3,840.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 26, 2022, at 12:17 PM, whyrudy via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Okay already, direct current/alternating current the more voltage the less
> amps used. It says so in my Code Book and reference books. Heat, Efficiency
> . . . Look at it this way. If your house was 240 volts rather than 120 volts
> your electric energy bill would be much less - why, amps baby. Send emails
> to the FIA and Worlds to tell them to get it together on this.
>
> The advantage is every class gets to use only what it needs to fly their
> pattern. Saving weight and costs.
>
> If you aren't going to the Nationals, then maybe adopt D-8 to allow 6s
> batteries usage.
>
> 6s = see you in the future. 5s seen you in the pasture.
>
> Come on . . .
>
> Rudy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of
> nsrca-dist8-request at lists.nsrca.org
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:19 AM
> To: nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 114, Issue 6
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Batteries (stnagler at gmail.com)
> 2. Re: Batteries (Patrick Harris)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 09:50:40 -0800
> From: "stnagler at gmail.com" <stnagler at gmail.com>
> To: Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>, "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY"
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
> Message-ID:
> <CAKuD62B1KzC-XBWyxc7VRbqbdEqnpTFi9aKENAeuP97Qthxq4Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thanks for the insight, so it could work, but not sustainable and adds
> unnecessary risk from complexity if I understand correctly. Wonder if a
> smart esc that can interact with each battery and cell exists or would be a
> valuable invention.
>
> Scott
>
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 09:31 Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Scott, I?m no expert but I don?t think I?d do that, epically if
>> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the
>> four gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and
>> increase amp draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery
>> condition excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring
> replacement of all four.
>> I?ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two 5-S batteries,
>> running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V cut off
>> would need to be set too high.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is just my opinion.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
>> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>
>>
>>
>> I can?t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count
>> but most likely not noticeable.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
> 12s?
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> If you haven?t seen it?s, here is the video Andrew did recently
>> comparing 10?s and 12?s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRf
>> KcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh batteries.
>> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
>>
>> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one
>> P-23
>> flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g
>> lighter, almost 2 ounces ?!
>>
>> Weight:
>>
>> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
>>
>> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
>>
>> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
>>
>> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh
>> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces,
>> compared to the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries
>> will probably last longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S
>> packs. I could not feel any performance improvement with 12S packs.
>>
>> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes,
>> but not yet in FAI.
>>
>> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize
>> the pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to
>> reprogram the ESC ?.
>>
>> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S packs.
>>
>> Lots of variables!
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
>> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice:
>> This e-mail, including any attachments is the property of Trinity
>> Health and is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).
>> It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any
>> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited.
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message, and
>> reply to the sender regarding the error in a separate email.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:17:49 -0700
> From: Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>
> To: Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>, "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY"
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
> Message-ID:
> <CAOtb9vD3htMt2uN+Wacaed4a=jKUyW_5xtJv9VqdECXw=CDUsA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Jim, Art,
>
> My pleasure. It's interesting to note that Andrew and AC will not be able to
> utilize the longer flight times of 12's at the NATS and the Worlds.
>
> As an aside, there was an interesting (or contentious) thread on RC Universe
> a while back. The guy wanted to get in a fight with me, but I wanted nothing
> to do with it. He was off on some tangent that a 12's system will not result
> in lower heat in the batteries. The long and short of it is, a 12's system
> is a higher voltage system than 10's, which results in it
> (12's) being a "more efficient" system. I am no electronic genius by any
> means, but I do know that higher voltage systems are noted as being more
> efficient. For our purposes, an efficient system simply has a lower current
> draw, which results in lower heat being generated within the system.
>
> John can correct me if I am wrong, but it's pretty much a question of how we
> generate the "Watts" in our system. In a 10's system, to generate X amount
> of watts of power, we need to pull X amount of Amps from the batteries. In a
> 12's system we now trade volts for amps. Simply said, to now generate the
> same amount of watts as our 10's system, we now are able to pull less amps
> from the batteries. (40 volts times 70 amp draw equals
> 2,800 watts) Conversely in a 12's system, (2,800 watts divided by 48 volts
> equals a 58 amp draw). Amps times Volts = Watts
>
> The bottom line is the roughly 12 amp less draw is really pretty irrelevant
> for our motor and ESC. Yes they might run a bit cooler, but they are built
> to take it. The real bonus is with less amp draw from our batteries they are
> simply going to run cooler. As we all know, heat is the death knell to our
> batteries. Less current draw equates to less heat, which equates to longer
> battery life. A high current draw from our batteries raises the internal
> resistance. The next time we fly, our batteries heat goes up due to the
> higher internal resistance, which now raises the internal resistance even
> further, which results in more heat being generated....the result a big
> puffy, shot battery.
>
> There is also a side note that I am not versed enough to discuss. It's my
> understanding that a higher voltage system may have less internal resistance
> of its components due to the lower current (amp) draw. Lower internal
> resistance equates to lower heat generation.
>
> It's all about the heat baby! Keep in mind, your mileage may vary.
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:31 AM Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> Scott, I?m no expert but I don?t think I?d do that, epically if
>> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the
>> four gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and
>> increase amp draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery
>> condition excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring
> replacement of all four.
>> I?ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two 5-S batteries,
>> running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V cut off
>> would need to be set too high.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is just my opinion.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
>> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>
>>
>>
>> I can?t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count
>> but most likely not noticeable.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
> 12s?
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> If you haven?t seen it?s, here is the video Andrew did recently
>> comparing 10?s and 12?s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRf
>> KcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 <
>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh batteries.
>> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
>>
>> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one
>> P-23
>> flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g
>> lighter, almost 2 ounces ?!
>>
>> Weight:
>>
>> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
>>
>> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
>>
>> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
>>
>> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh
>> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces,
>> compared to the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries
>> will probably last longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S
>> packs. I could not feel any performance improvement with 12S packs.
>>
>> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes,
>> but not yet in FAI.
>>
>> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize
>> the pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to
>> reprogram the ESC ?.
>>
>> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S packs.
>>
>> Lots of variables!
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
>> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Karl
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality Notice:
>> This e-mail, including any attachments is the property of Trinity
>> Health and is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).
>> It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any
>> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited.
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message, and
>> reply to the sender regarding the error in a separate email.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
>> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
>> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>>
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