[NSRCA-dist8] NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 114, Issue 6

whyrudy at comcast.net whyrudy at comcast.net
Wed Jan 26 10:16:51 AKST 2022 

Okay already, direct current/alternating current the more voltage the less
amps used. It says so in my Code Book and reference books. Heat, Efficiency
. . . Look at it this way. If your house was 240 volts rather than 120 volts
your electric energy bill would be much less - why, amps baby. Send emails
to the FIA and Worlds to tell them to get it together on this. 

The advantage is every class gets to use only what it needs to fly their
pattern. Saving weight and costs.

If you aren't going to the Nationals, then maybe adopt D-8 to allow 6s
batteries usage.

6s = see you in the future. 5s seen you in the pasture.

Come on . . . 

Rudy

-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Batteries (stnagler at gmail.com)
   2. Re: Batteries (Patrick Harris)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 09:50:40 -0800
From: "stnagler at gmail.com" <stnagler at gmail.com>
To: Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>,  "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY"
	<nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
Message-ID:
	<CAKuD62B1KzC-XBWyxc7VRbqbdEqnpTFi9aKENAeuP97Qthxq4Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks for the insight, so it could work, but not sustainable and adds
unnecessary risk from complexity if I understand correctly.   Wonder if a
smart esc that can interact with each battery and cell exists or would be a
valuable invention.

Scott

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 09:31 Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> Scott, I?m no expert but I don?t think I?d do that, epically if 
> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the 
> four gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and 
> increase amp draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery 
> condition excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring
replacement of all four.
> I?ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two 5-S batteries, 
> running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V cut off 
> would need to be set too high.
>
>
>
> This is just my opinion.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> Windows
>
>
>
> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY 
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>
>
>
> I can?t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count 
> but most likely not noticeable.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
12s?
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> If you haven?t seen it?s, here is the video Andrew did recently 
> comparing 10?s and 12?s
>
>
>
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRf
> KcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh batteries.
> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
>
> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one 
> P-23
> flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g 
> lighter, almost 2 ounces ?!
>
> Weight:
>
> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
>
> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
>
> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
>
> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh 
> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces, 
> compared to the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries 
> will probably last longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S 
> packs. I could not feel any performance improvement with 12S packs.
>
> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes, 
> but not yet in FAI.
>
> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize 
> the pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to 
> reprogram the ESC ?.
>
> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S packs.
>
> Lots of variables!
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of 
> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>
>
>
> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
>
>
>
> Karl
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice:
> This e-mail, including any attachments is the property of Trinity 
> Health and is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). 
> It may contain information that is privileged and confidential.  Any 
> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. 
> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message, and 
> reply to the sender regarding the error in a separate email.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:17:49 -0700
From: Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>
To: Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>,  "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY"
	<nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
Message-ID:
	<CAOtb9vD3htMt2uN+Wacaed4a=jKUyW_5xtJv9VqdECXw=CDUsA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Jim, Art,

My pleasure. It's interesting to note that Andrew and AC will not be able to
utilize the longer flight times of 12's at the NATS and the Worlds.

As an aside, there was an interesting (or contentious) thread on RC Universe
a while back. The guy wanted to get in a fight with me, but I wanted nothing
to do with it. He was off on some tangent that a 12's system will not result
in lower heat in the batteries. The long and short of it is, a 12's system
is a higher voltage system than 10's, which results in it
(12's) being a "more efficient" system. I am no electronic genius by any
means, but I do know that higher voltage systems are noted as being more
efficient. For our purposes, an efficient system simply has a lower current
draw, which results in lower heat being generated within the system.

John can correct me if I am wrong, but it's pretty much a question of how we
generate the "Watts" in our system. In a 10's system, to generate X amount
of watts of power, we need to pull X amount of Amps from the batteries. In a
12's system we now trade volts for amps. Simply said, to now generate the
same amount of watts as our 10's system, we now are able to pull less amps
from the batteries. (40 volts times 70 amp draw equals
2,800 watts) Conversely in a 12's system, (2,800 watts divided by 48 volts
equals a 58 amp draw). Amps times Volts = Watts

The bottom line is the roughly 12 amp less draw is really pretty irrelevant
for our motor and ESC. Yes they might run a bit cooler, but they are built
to take it. The real bonus is with less amp draw from our batteries they are
simply going to run cooler. As we all know, heat is the death knell to our
batteries. Less current draw equates to less heat, which equates to longer
battery life. A high current draw from our batteries raises the internal
resistance. The next time we fly, our batteries heat goes up due to the
higher internal resistance, which now raises the internal resistance even
further, which results in more heat being generated....the result a big
puffy, shot battery.

There is also a side note that I am not versed enough to discuss. It's my
understanding that a higher voltage system may have less internal resistance
of its components due to the lower current (amp) draw. Lower internal
resistance equates to lower heat generation.

It's all about the heat baby! Keep in mind, your mileage may vary.

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:31 AM Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> Scott, I?m no expert but I don?t think I?d do that, epically if 
> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the 
> four gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and 
> increase amp draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery 
> condition excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring
replacement of all four.
> I?ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two 5-S batteries, 
> running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V cut off 
> would need to be set too high.
>
>
>
> This is just my opinion.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
> Windows
>
>
>
> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY 
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>
>
>
> I can?t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count 
> but most likely not noticeable.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
12s?
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> If you haven?t seen it?s, here is the video Andrew did recently 
> comparing 10?s and 12?s
>
>
>
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRf
> KcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 < 
> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> ?
>
> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh batteries.
> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
>
> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one 
> P-23
> flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g 
> lighter, almost 2 ounces ?!
>
> Weight:
>
> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
>
> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
>
> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
>
> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh 
> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces, 
> compared to the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries 
> will probably last longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S 
> packs. I could not feel any performance improvement with 12S packs.
>
> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes, 
> but not yet in FAI.
>
> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize 
> the pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to 
> reprogram the ESC ?.
>
> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S packs.
>
> Lots of variables!
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of 
> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
>
>
>
> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
>
>
>
> Karl
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice:
> This e-mail, including any attachments is the property of Trinity 
> Health and is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). 
> It may contain information that is privileged and confidential.  Any 
> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. 
> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message, and 
> reply to the sender regarding the error in a separate email.
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-dist8 mailing list
> NSRCA-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist8
>
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