[NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries

Tue Feb 1 21:12:52 AKST 2022

John

Thanks for your comments.

By the way....our very own Karl Watts will be the proud owner of an almost
new Excess bipe set up for 12's! Whooo Hooo! This is one of the bipes I
built for Andrew. It's a killer plane and ultra light.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 10:37 PM John Bentley <j.bentley at usa.net> wrote:

> Pat, You nailed it!  Constant speed is the goal... now it is a  judging
> criteria... You have to figure out your down-line speed and that will be
> your
> pattern pace overall. 12S will reduce the heat load on our systems by
> almost
> 20% not a big deal if you fly where is is cool but in Arizona for example
> it
> makes a big deal.  I believe that the batteries will last longer with 12S
> just
> due to the reduction of current draw per flight. Unfortunately if you want
> to
> fly 12S you will need a different motor. as an example if you currently
> have a
> Pletty 30-10 you can run it on 12S however to limit the current you will
> have
> to reduce the prop size to about  13-15 inches.... while it will fly there
> will not be much braking. AJ has figured out the motor difference and is
> using
> the same size props as we currently are using on his new motor setup.
>
> 2 cents...... all it is worth!
> John
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:32:15 AM MST
> From: Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> To: Velkydilnar <velkydilnar at comcast.net>Cc: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY"
> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries
>
> Lyle
>
> Great idea. Let me know when you get it perfected!
>
> I still fly contras. The main reson is the "cool" factor. You know "It;s
> better to look good than to be good".
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:26 AM Velkydilnar <velkydilnar at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On the speed discussion.
> > Xareltoo with YS200 and 22x11 prop, the prop has such braking power that
> >  Alex has to add power to not stall the model in down lines maneuvers.
> From
> > seeing the top European pilots, it’s about consistency. CPLR is not
> really
> > slow. But he is always the same.
> >
> > I think for electric, we can play with wide props and use the governor
> > function in ESC.  I think that is Sean’s way to help with constant speed.
> >
> > Sean, am I correct?
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2022, at 10:10 AM, Lyle Laughery via NSRCA-dist8 <
> > nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I’m thing someone will design a motor and prop so the contra only works
> on
> > down lines ,then kicks out on horizontal and 45’s .Like changing gears
> from
> > first to third on a car trans.
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:04 AM Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
> > nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Igor,
> >>
> >> Interesting that you bring up flying slower. There has been a major
> shift
> >> in flying styles of the top guys over the last few years and it all
> >> revolves around speed.
> >>
> >> It wasn't that long ago, everyone wanted to fly slow and close in. John
> >> Bentley has been to several Worlds and can attest that the top 20 or so
> >> percent of the field all fly at a top level and it has become very
> >> difficult to judge. The big thing now is ultra consistent speed. In fact
> >> consistent speed has now become a major judging criteria to help
> >> distinguish the very top pilots.
> >>
> >> The problem is, it is very difficult to fly slow and have consistent
> >> speed. The limiting factor is "downlines''. You can only control
> downline
> >> speed so much. So what the big boys are now doing is watching their
> >> downline speed and matching that to their horizontal and 45 speed. The
> >> outcome has become "faster" and a bit further out flying styles.
> >>
> >> One other issue is contras. Andrew was flying contras maybe three or
> four
> >> years ago. He told me he stopped flying them because he couldn't get
> >> consistent speed. I was flying a contra at the time and didn't really
> pick
> >> up on what he was talking about for several months. I started to really
> >> concentrate on speed and realized I couldn't fly uplines at the same
> speed
> >> as 45's and horizontals. Flying a contra is kind of like driving a
> tractor.
> >> A tractor might go 3 miles per hour at 1/3 throttle but only 5 miles per
> >> hour at full throttle. You can go upline with a contra with just a
> couple
> >> of clicks of power, but if you go full throttle it wont go much
> >> faster....it just burns up batteries.
> >>
> >> The bottom line is we are going to burn more juice to get consistent
> >> flying speed, but that's the price we have to pay.
> >>
> >> Hope this helps.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 10:26 AM Karl Watts <
> >> Karl.Watts at saintalphonsus.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Anyone want some never used Roaring Top, 5C, 5800 mAh, 35C lipo
> >>> batteries with EC5 connectors?  Purchased the 5800 by mistake, wanted
> the
> >>> 5000.  I have 6 of them.  Retail right now for $72 each.  I do not
> remember
> >>> how much I paid for them, not that much, they were on sale.  Will give
> you
> >>> a really good deal - $45/each.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Karl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* Sean Mersh <mershs at hotmail.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 8:42 PM
> >>> *To:* Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>; Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>; Karl
> >>> Watts <Karl.Watts at saintalphonsus.org>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, there is a difference:
> >>>
> >>> 35C's are heavier than 25C's, because the only way (at present) to
> >>> increase C rating is to add more metal to the packs, increasing weight.
> >>>
> >>> BUT: in pattern, unlike in 3D or helicopter flying, we don't need more
> >>> than 25C because we don't pull short bursts of high power, as long as
> we
> >>> use good throttle management with SLOW throttle stick movements.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Outlook
> >>>
> <
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=04%7C01%7CKarl.Watts%40saintalphonsus.org%7C84b4707ce20b46cd42bd08d9e146feb0%7C0d91e6194a2c4c80b9598fdf518e52e8%7C0%7C0%7C637788517330336456%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=TCf6Evm%2B7ggiWTbInv%2F5eOH64gt6gOCpaXFUetI2pg4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
> >>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 11:00 AM
> >>> *To:* Patrick Harris <harris7148 at gmail.com>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>; Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist8] [External] Re: Batteries
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> OK, so, does it make a difference if I get the 35 C 10s 5000s versus
> the
> >>> 25 C 10s 5000s?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> *On Behalf
> Of
> >>> *Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8
> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 11:18 AM
> >>> *To:* Jim Hiller <jnhiller at comcast.net>; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Subject:* [External] Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *CYBERSECURITY WARNING**:* This email is sent from outside of Trinity
> >>> Health.
> >>>
> >>> *DO NOT* click on links, open attachments or share confidential
> >>> information including passwords unless you know the sender. Please
> report
> >>> any suspicious emails using the “Report Message” button.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jim, Art,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My pleasure. It's interesting to note that Andrew and AC will not be
> >>> able to utilize the longer flight times of 12's at the NATS and the
> Worlds.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As an aside, there was an interesting (or contentious) thread on RC
> >>> Universe a while back. The guy wanted to get in a fight with me, but I
> >>> wanted nothing to do with it. He was off on some tangent that a 12's
> system
> >>> will not result in lower heat in the batteries. The long and short of
> it
> >>> is, a 12's system is a higher voltage system than 10's, which results
> in
> it
> >>> (12's) being a "more efficient" system. I am no electronic genius by
> any
> >>> means, but I do know that higher voltage systems are noted as being
> more
> >>> efficient. For our purposes, an efficient system simply has a lower
> current
> >>> draw, which results in lower heat being generated within the system.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> John can correct me if I am wrong, but it's pretty much a question of
> >>> how we generate the "Watts" in our system. In a 10's system, to
> generate
> X
> >>> amount of watts of power, we need to pull X amount of Amps from the
> >>> batteries. In a 12's system we now trade volts for amps. Simply said,
> to
> >>> now generate the same amount of watts as our 10's system, we now are
> able
> >>> to pull less amps from the batteries. (40 volts times 70 amp draw
> equals
> >>> 2,800 watts) Conversely in a 12's system, (2,800 watts divided by 48
> volts
> >>> equals a 58 amp draw). Amps times Volts = Watts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The bottom line is the roughly 12 amp less draw is really pretty
> >>> irrelevant for our motor and ESC. Yes they might run a bit cooler, but
> they
> >>> are built to take it. The real bonus is with less amp draw from our
> >>> batteries they are simply going to run cooler. As we all know, heat is
> the
> >>> death knell to our batteries. Less current draw equates to less heat,
> which
> >>> equates to longer battery life. A high current draw from our batteries
> >>> raises the internal resistance. The next time we fly, our batteries
> heat
> >>> goes up due to the higher internal resistance, which now raises the
> >>> internal resistance even further, which results in more heat being
> >>> generated....the result a big puffy, shot battery.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There is also a side note that I am not versed enough to discuss. It's
> >>> my understanding that a higher voltage system may have less internal
> >>> resistance of its components due to the lower current (amp) draw. Lower
> >>> internal resistance equates to lower heat generation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It's all about the heat baby! Keep in mind, your mileage may vary.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:31 AM Jim Hiller via NSRCA-dist8 <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Scott, I’m no expert but I don’t think I’d do that, epically if
> >>> batteries are not purchased together and USED together. If one of the
> four
> >>> gets week it will drop voltage faster then the other three and increase
> amp
> >>> draw. If one is not paying close attention to the battery condition
> >>> excessive amp draw will detiourate the other three, requiring
> replacement
> >>> of all four. I’ve had this happen with a low voltage shutdown to two
> 5-S
> >>> batteries, running the good one as well. To prevent this the ESC low V
> cut
> >>> off would need to be set too high.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is just my opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Mail
> >>>
> <
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=04%7C01%7CKarl.Watts%40saintalphonsus.org%7C84b4707ce20b46cd42bd08d9e146feb0%7C0d91e6194a2c4c80b9598fdf518e52e8%7C0%7C0%7C637788517330492662%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HjRKRJ5UWDWV5e8jRv7brxL0cItN7N3CJ9JsBw2j%2BQY%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >>> for Windows
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From: *Shawn Bekheimer via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 26, 2022 6:06 AM
> >>> *To: *stnagler at gmail.com; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
> >>> <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I can’t see why not. There will be minimal loss due to connector count
> >>> but most likely not noticeable.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 11:14 PM, stnagler--- via NSRCA-dist8 <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> Maybe a newb question, but could 4-3s batteries work as well to get to
> >>> 12s?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Scott
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 20:57 Patrick Harris via NSRCA-dist8 <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If you haven’t seen it’s, here is the video Andrew did recently
> >>> comparing 10’s and 12’s
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR1ylyggiK9aZWt0I2eG19TTULyKflWRfKcCg2P510HLmvHZw8bVTwSq6t0&v=0Rz5WdhEJwA&feature=youtu.be
> >>>
> <
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> >
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 7:32 PM, Sean Mersh via NSRCA-dist8 <
> >>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> I have experimented with 12S batteries; I used the TP 4000mAh
> batteries.
> >>> Average remaining capacity after one P-23 flight: 38%.
> >>>
> >>> With 10S TP 4400 mAh batteries: Average remaining capacity after one
> >>> P-23 flight: 32%. It is the same for the newer version that is 48 g
> >>> lighter, almost 2 ounces 🙂!
> >>>
> >>> Weight:
> >>>
> >>> TP 12S 4000 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1062 g
> >>>
> >>> TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 1025 g
> >>>
> >>> New TP 10S 4400 mAh, 25C ProLiteX: 977 g
> >>>
> >>> My conclusion: unless you're flying F-23 and Unknowns, 10S 4400 mAh
> >>> batteries are more than adequate and save you almost 3 ounces, compared
> to
> >>> the 12S 4000 mAh packs. I agree that the 12S batteries will probably
> last
> >>> longer, since they are not worked as hard as 10S packs. I could not
> feel
> >>> any performance improvement with 12S packs.
> >>>
> >>> As stated by other members: 12S packs are legal now in AMA classes, but
> >>> not yet in FAI.
> >>>
> >>> Another consideration: My Mezon ESC does not automatically recognize
> the
> >>> pack cell count. So, if I switch from 10S to 12S, I need to reprogram
> the
> >>> ESC 😟.
> >>>
> >>> But, 6S (2x) cells are much more readily available than 5S or 10S
> packs.
> >>>
> >>> Lots of variables!
> >>>
> >>> Sean
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sent from Outlook
> >>>
> <
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> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of
> >>> Karl Watts via NSRCA-dist8 <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 7:25 PM
> >>> *To:* AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist8] Batteries
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Anyone switching to 12s packs?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Karl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Confidentiality Notice:
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >> _______________________________________________
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