[NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division

[trexlesh@msn.com]

Finally, someone who understands necessity!!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Dennis Cone" <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2012 9:42 pm


And Rex, yes lying is a handicap, and yes in your case it is 1948.

Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich. Smarter than an IPhone.
On Oct 2, 2012 9:38 PM, "Dennis Cone" <patternpilot25 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Pat. A little clearer now.
>
> Dennis
>
> Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
> On Oct 2, 2012 9:22 PM, "Patrick Harris" <harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> To answer your question, yes these are options that are on top of regular
>> scoring for each class. We would still run things exactly the same way and
>> just use the data to crown a Senior, Over All winner, etc.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:07 PM, trexlesh at msn.com <trexlesh at msn.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I was just trying to establish a handicap....lying is a handicap!!!
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com>
>>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>> Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2012 8:15 pm
>>>
>>>
>>> 1948? or 1958?
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 8:11 PM, trexlesh at msn.com <trexlesh at msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> April 30, 1948......  Or there abouts!  :-)
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com>
>>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>> Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2012 7:20 pm
>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> Lots of good ideas have been discussed today. The great thing about
>>> these ideas is we don't have to wait to see the outcome of trying the
>>> different approaches. I have many years of D8 data so we can run a bunch of
>>> approaches and see what we see. I have a bit of code to write to get the
>>> infrastructure I need in place. If I am going to use age I will need to get
>>> birth dates from you all, so send the data my way.
>>> The place I will start is to calculate the percent of possible points
>>> based on raw score (after k factor is applied) and use only the rounds used
>>> in your total score. I can then sort this data independent of class and see
>>> what the order looks like. If this data clusters by class then this concept
>>> will need more thinking. We can use this data to see when the impact is of
>>> having age classes.
>>> Handicapping is a lot harder issue, I would like to avoid using
>>> historical data to do the calculations, I would like to do all the
>>> calculations on the current or active contest.
>>> I will try to spend some time on this over the weekend and have some
>>> data for you all to play with. Please keep all the ideas coming, this will
>>> be fun!
>>>
>>> --Gordon
>>>
>>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 6:52 PM, "Rudy" <whyRudy at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like #3 - could name it 'Flyer of the Day or Weekend'
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> nsrca-dist8-request at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:39 PM
>>> To: nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Subject: NSRCA-dist8 Digest, Vol 49, Issue 7
>>>
>>> Send NSRCA-dist8 mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: Senior Division (Raymond C. Gauthier)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:39:05 -0700
>>> From: "Raymond C. Gauthier" <rc.gauthier at comcast.net>
>>> To: "'J N Hiller'" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>, "'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY'"
>>>  <nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>> Message-ID: <001901cda107$f0481030$d0d83090$@comcast.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Jim and all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The system you describe is much like bowling or golf where handicaps make
>>> competition possible across all levels of abilities.  I do however see
>>> two
>>> major differences which might cause serious problems.  First, in golf or
>>> bowling all games/rounds played are factored into the handicap.  For
>>> competitive bowlers and golfers this means that annually 100+ scores are
>>> making up the handicap.  If every practice round a pattern flyer flew
>>> were
>>> properly judged and entered into the handicap calculation there would be
>>> little difference, but of course that's not possible.  Second, in golf
>>> and
>>> bowling the score is easy to calculate, count the strokes or pins, but
>>> pattern is subjectively judged so the same flight doesn't get the same
>>> score
>>> in front of a different judge.  I don't see how an accurate handicap
>>> could
>>> be determined in 10 competitive flights in front of different judges.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just thinking out loud,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: J N Hiller [mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 6:23 PM
>>> To: rc.gauthier at comcast.net; AK, ID, MT, OR, WA,WY
>>> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok I'll bite.
>>>
>>> I believe a better system would be some sort of handicap or adjustment
>>> multiplier based on a running average of recant contest averages. This
>>> would
>>> level the playing field for all competitors with at least some
>>> competition
>>> history. Any flight slightly above one's average would put him or her in
>>> contention. I'd given this some thought years ago and feel this type of
>>> system could actually replace individual class awards. This would make
>>> it a
>>> contest rather than a by-class competition.
>>>
>>> We all would be competing with each other based on our demonstrated
>>> average
>>> ability. The competitors improving their flight scores would place high
>>> as
>>> well as adjusting their handicap multiplier prior to the next contest
>>> they
>>> attend. An insensitive to continuously improve as well as a need to do
>>> so!
>>>
>>> Changing class probably needs to restart one's running average and
>>> associated multiplier. This type of an adjustment number could follow
>>> one's
>>> ability change either up or down.
>>>
>>> Yes there would still be inequities such as new sequences or weather
>>> related
>>> scores affecting our demonstrated average for all rounds flown over say
>>> the
>>> past 2, 3 or 4 contests based on all rounds finished. Partial flights or
>>> missed rounds probably shouldn't be considered in a competitor's running
>>> average.
>>>
>>> As for number crunching if one's current contest average of say 87% /
>>> ...87
>>> was divided by their demonstrated ability average of say 85% - ...85
>>> their
>>>
>>> contest competition score would be 1.02353. This number for this contest
>>> would replace the oldest contest average and used in computing the new
>>> ability average.
>>>
>>> This system would only reward those who had a good two days as opposed
>>> to I
>>> single high point lucky flight regardless of age or class flown.
>>>
>>> Nothing is simple in my world!
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Raymond C.
>>> Gauthier
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 2:34 PM
>>> To: 'AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY'
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know little about this but that never stopped me before so ....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think there are two separate and distinct issues:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The first is old guys don't fly as well as not so old guys.  I think
>>> there
>>> should be a senior division that starts at a senior age like 65, maybe
>>> even
>>> 70.  This would allow all the old guys to compete against each other
>>> regardless of class.  Option 2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The second issue is that in District 8 there are contests where a pilot
>>> may
>>> be the only flyer in his or her class.  For those who have done it -
>>> this is
>>> less than great fun and excitement.  So an overall class which I'd call
>>> the
>>> Open Division (or we could call it classless). Option 3
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If we did both we'd pass out awards in each NSRCA class plus Senior Class
>>> and Open Class.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's my 2 cents worth.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ray Gauthier
>>>
>>> (Who will be the way be practicing and competing next season despite my
>>> absence this year.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Patrick Harris [mailto:harris7148 at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:47 PM
>>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So now that most of you have had a while to think about this, here are
>>> the
>>> options.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "1" Leave the system as is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "2" Set our system up as IMAC does with a "Seniors Division" only
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "3" Set up our system per "Seniors Division",  but open to all ages.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "4" Integrate both.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If we go with "3", what do we call it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Ideas...input
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat Harris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well I used Linda's iPhone and it made me 120. I like mine better.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Xoom using Ice Creme Sandwich
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2012 8:23 PM, "Gordon Anderson" <gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Dennis,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You must be counting your age base 16, or maybe you are using that
>>> samsung
>>> not so smartphone to figure out your age... dude, get an iPhone!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 26, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Dennis Cone <patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I guess this just leaves me out. I won't be 55 for a few more years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:  <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>>> <mailto:dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
>>> Behalf Of  <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:32 AM
>>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But I'm so young!    ...and shy
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "Dennis Cone" < <mailto:patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>>> patternpilot25 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "&apos;AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY&apos;" <
>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>> Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Age handicap? That's not fair. It gives Rex a big lead.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:  <mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> <mailto:%5Bmailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5D>
>>> [mailto:nsrca-dist8-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> <mailto:trexlesh at msn.com> trexlesh at msn.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 9:30 PM
>>> To: AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mind your elders, young man!
>>>
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>>
>>> ----- Reply message -----
>>> From: "astropuppy" < <mailto:astropuppy at gmail.com> astropuppy at gmail.com>
>>> To: "AK, ID, MT, OR, WA, WY" < <mailto:nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> nsrca-dist8 at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist8] Senior Division
>>> Date: Tue, Sep 25, 2012 8:16 pm
>>>
>>>
>>> For the record, even though I am younger then Rex; I will be 55 next
>>> year.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Another idea would be to use pilot age for handicapping. Something
>>> simple:
>>> Calculate the adjusted score by taking flight percentage as Pat outline
>>> then
>>> multiplying it times the pilots age.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Pat,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree, it adds another element of competition and all it takes is a
>>> little
>>> more reporting. I see no reason not to do it, you should write up the
>>> idea
>>> and send it to Rex to publish in the K-Factor! Other districts may want
>>> to
>>> try the same thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:
>>> harris7148 at gmail.com>
>>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gordon,
>>>
>>> Actually Mike's idea has a lot of merit as well. By including all ages,
>>> it
>>> creates a contest within a contest. Besides, It's the only way I'll ever
>>> be
>>> able to beat Alex! For most of the year, Dick flying Sportsman by
>>> himself,
>>> would of had a chance to beat guys in all other classes, Pretty
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Gordon Anderson < <mailto:gaa at owt.com>
>>> gaa at owt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pat,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This would be pretty easy to do. I think I can easily add this to the
>>> existing program. I will work on this and have it ready for next season,
>>> its
>>> basically just a reporting issue, the only new data I need is age.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cool idea.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Patrick Harris < <mailto:
>>> harris7148 at gmail.com>
>>> harris7148 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the Richland contest, I discussed with a few attendees, the
>>> possibility
>>> of introducing a Seniors Division into our events such as IMAC does.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some of you may be aware of a gentleman by the name of Ron Smith (AKA
>>> Captain Kaos).  Ron has been around the pattern scene for many years
>>> (thus
>>> the AKA name). Ron was instrumental in working with IMAC to set up the
>>> current Seniors Division, first introduced a few years ago in the IMAC
>>> Pacific Northwest District. IMAC has now rolled out this program on a
>>> nationwide basis.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been in contact with Ron and he is excited at the possibility of
>>> introducing a similar program into Pattern. Ron has stressed he will be
>>> of
>>> help in any way he can.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The mechanics of this program are very straight forward. First off, IMAC
>>> uses age 55 or older as their cutoff (I think that pretty much includes
>>> all
>>> of us). In a nutshell, what they do is use the "percentage of possible
>>> points" per round compared to all other competitors' scores. By doing
>>> this,
>>> you are competing with all other contestants, regardless of their class.
>>> So
>>> in other words, if a Sportsman flew a round and received 75% of the total
>>> points available for that class, he would finish higher versus a Master's
>>> pilot scoring 74% of the total points available.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gordon's spreadsheet is already calculating a "percentage of points", so
>>> I
>>> trust it would not be too difficult to integrate it into our system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Following is the info off the IMAC web site that should clear up any
>>> confusion I may have created:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Starting in 2009, we are introducing the "IMAC Senior Points Series".
>>> This
>>> series is open to any IMAC member who competes in any IMAC Regional
>>> Points
>>> Series (IRPS) contest, in the Sportsman thru Unlimited class and is
>>> fortunate enough to be 55 years of age or older at the start of any IRPS
>>> contest. (Sorry kids, you will just have to wait a few more years.) This
>>> series, held in the NW region since 2004, has been a great success and is
>>> now expanding to all IMAC regions.
>>>
>>> At each contest throughout the flying season, the Senior Competition is
>>> held
>>> in conjunction with your normal IMAC class. Scores are based on the
>>> pilots
>>> percentage achieved against the maximum possible raw score for their
>>> class.
>>> You are flying against other Senior pilots in Sportsman thru Unlimited
>>> classes.
>>>
>>> For example, the 2009 Sportsman sequence has a total of 2,210 points
>>> available per judge per sequence; with 2 judges this equals 4,420
>>> points. If
>>> the pilot's raw score is 3,536 points that is 80.00% of the available
>>> points. If an Unlimited Senior pilot scores 75.00% of his available
>>> points,
>>> the sportsman pilot wins that particular sequence. These percentage
>>> scores
>>> are calculated in the scoring program automatically and normalized
>>> against
>>> all other Senior pilots by round. Standard formats for throw-out
>>> sequences
>>> and normalizing are still the same.
>>>
>>> There are no additional fees, sequences, or rounds flown and you are
>>> still
>>> competing in your normal IMAC class. All points, placements and/or
>>> trophies
>>> you earn for your class are still awarded. The host club has the option
>>> to
>>> award a 1st place Senior award if they choose, but it is not mandatory.
>>>
>>> Entering the Senior Competition is the eligible pilot's choice and is not
>>> mandatory, however, if you decline to join, your points are not
>>> retroactively applied later in the year. Once you join then the region
>>> will
>>> keep your scores for the year.
>>>
>>> At the end of the regular season in each region and just like the regular
>>> Regional Points Series, the Senior Points Series winners for the season
>>> will
>>> be awarded first through third place based on their top five contests
>>> (normalized - as in the regular class regional points standings and ties
>>> will be settled in the same manner).
>>>
>>> Pat Harris _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
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