[NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
Chris Fitzsimmons
kfactoreditor at gmail.com
Tue May 3 21:50:58 AKDT 2016
See ya in 10 minutes.. haha.. jk jk bro.... smile.. it's a fricken hobby!
hehe
Chris
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:01 PM, JAMIE SCHOOLCRAFT <
jamieschoolcraft at icloud.com> wrote:
> Hot damn Robert just nailed exactly what I've been trying to say all
> along. No further comments from me as this is my exact stance as well!
>
> Take Care,
> Jamie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 3, 2016, at 9:57 PM, Robert E Fish via NSRCA-dist7 <
> nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> I believe that in today's world there is not enough personal
> accountability and emphasis on the value of good citizenship. To make this
> comment neutral, I am going to put on the stinky shoes and play the role in
> this hypothetical scenario.
>
> Let's say that I am barred from the Antelope Valley Tailwinds (where I am
> a member) for an unspecified egregious behavior(s). I acknowledge this
> behavior and accept responsibility for my actions, and the consequences
> therein.
>
> The tailwinds hold two contests per year, and they are also the closest to
> my home. I cannot go to these contests. Since I am accountable for my
> behavior, I accept the consequences, among them is the extra burden that I
> brought upon myself in having to travel further and incur greater costs to
> participate in a district championship program for my hobby. This extra
> burden would be to participate in other events to take up the slack of the
> two Tailwinds events that I am not allowed to participate in due to my
> inappropriate behavior(s). Flying in model airplane contests is not a right
> or entitlement, but rather a privilege. If I could not afford the extra
> expense to travel to the additional contests, this would be entirely my
> fault, and I would have to live with that fact. It is entirely on me.
>
> It would be a great incentive for me to repent in my behavior, and work
> diligently to regain my good standing with the tailwinds, firstly to repair
> my personal reputation, then subordinately to regain the privilege of
> flying at the Tailwinds facility again, even if it was on a time to time
> basis for competitive events, and maybe in the future to regain the
> potential for re-acceptance of membership privileges.
>
> Robert Fish
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *To:* Frackowiak Tony <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>; "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <
> nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 3, 2016 9:26 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
>
>
>
> This is your comment Tony... Chip lives in the same area and has a limited
> income right? Now he would have to travel further to get his required in..
>
> So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the Champs,
> and the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF contest, which was just
> to try to help out after your contest was cancelled, plus no points for all
> BMF contests in the future, it will now be even harder for people of more
> limited means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it a
> "level playing field" for them?
>
> I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the events
> you want, along with the Nats each year. Not only financially but when you
> can always travel in a group sharing the load. Not often the case when
> you're just getting in to pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that
> help me attend contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run
> or I can return home easily to stay the night.
>
> And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests continue to
> dwindle. Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant contest.
>
> Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
>
> Tony
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On May 3, 2016, at 8:35 PM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7 <
> nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Don. I agree completely with your points about being in good
> standing.
> >
> > Tony Frackowiak
> >
> >> On May 3, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Donald Fox via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >>
> >> I understand John’s stand but excluding points for district
> >> championship from any club is not the answer. I think John needs to
> >> sit down, take time and rethink his stance. I also think we are
> >> missing a valid point as to what a pilot in good standing is. Its not
> >> just being in good standing with the NSRCA and AMA but also to be in
> >> good standing with the club he or she is competing at. If you lack any
> >> of these three points, you are NOT a pilot in good standing. After
> >> all, we are thankful for the clubs that allow us to hold pattern
> >> contest at there facilities. There are more contest in D7 than in most
> >> other districts that a pilot in lesser standing can make up the
> >> difference (If expense and health allows). 4 contest, 3 contest, out
> >> for district or not, extra points for number of contestants, I don’t
> >> care. Its all good for me. I stand with Jamie on these issues. This
> >> discussion is getting almost as bad as the presidential race. Wake me
> >> when the bull shit and flies have left the field and these issues have
> >> been resolved. Maybe I’ll be back too. Till then, I’ll hang on to my
> >> fly swatter.
> >>
> >> Donald!
> >>
> >>> On 5/2/16, John Gayer via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
> >>> As an annual participant in District 7 contests but not a district 7
> >>> resident, I offer the following suggestion.
> >>>
> >>> 1. It seems clear that any club has the right to ban an individual from
> >>> setting foot on the club premises. That does assume that the club has
> >>> the right to banish anyone. There are cases of clubs on publicly owned
> >>> land where that is not true.
> >>>
> >>> 2. It is also clear that the NSRCA has the duty to set up a fair and
> >>> equitable means of determining district championships as best they can
> >>> for their membership. The National has delegated this responsibility to
> >>> the DVPs.
> >>>
> >>> I suggest the DVP change the point accumulation rules to include the
> >>> following:
> >>>
> >>> 1) All AMA sanctioned club results will be included in the points
> >>> calculations
> >>>
> >>> 2) If a member in good standing with the AMA and the NSRCA is
> >>> banned from attending a qualified contest the following applies.
> >>>
> >>> If the banned member in good standing cannot attend a replacement
> >>> contest due to scheduling or financial hardship in order to meet the
> >>> maximum allowable contest results under the rules, then his points for
> >>> that missing contest will be the average of the contests he did attend.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I don't see John's position as an attempt to "punish" a club. I'd be
> >>> willing to bet most of the attendees attend more contests than the
> >>> limit. Certainly the many out of district contestants don't care about
> >>> the status of the district points. Hold a great contest and they will
> >>> all come (and they have).
> >>>
> >>> I'm sure the AMA would just look at the fact that the NSRCA did nothing
> >>> to prevent a contest being held or to invalidate the results obtained
> >>> and say "What's the problem?"
> >>>
> >>> John Gayer
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/2/2016 9:26 PM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >>>> NSRCA district points can not be issued by a flying field club.. Only
> >>>> by an NSRCA event where all can fly..
> >>>>
> >>>> C
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:55 PM, JAMIE SCHOOLCRAFT via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> WELL SAID STEVE!!!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Take Care,
> >>>>> Jamie
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Steven Lampert via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> My problem with John’s position is that if a club, in accordance
> >>>>>> with its bylaws, acts to expel or ban an individual, then the NRCA’s
> >>>>>> decision to invalidate the points from an event hosted by that club
> >>>>>> effectively penalizes the club for taking action against such an
> >>>>>> individual. The club is thus left with the unpalatable options of
> >>>>>> either tolerating the presence of this individual, or having their
> >>>>>> contest effectively marginalized and transformed into a glorified
> >>>>>> fun fly.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I really don’t question the authority of the NSRCA to exclude such a
> >>>>>> club from hosting an event that is conducted under the auspices of
> >>>>>> the NSRCA. However , within the context of a club sponsored event,
> >>>>>> I think the NSRCA may be exceeding the legitimate bounds of its
> >>>>>> authority by effectively punishing a club in this manner.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What I can’t seem to determine is what is the legitimate scope and
> >>>>>> source of the NSRCA’s authority in this regard…
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-dist7 [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of *Peter Vogel via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 2:11 PM
> >>>>>> *To:* Chris Fitzsimmons; CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> +1. Well said Chris!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No one is really missing out on any points or contest. Let's not
> >>>>>> forget the BMF contest was not even a contest till like a week ago.
> >>>>>> The guys up north are actually the main people missing out on a
> >>>>>> contest. Hence why the Fresno came in to replace it. And then BMF..
> >>>>>> Great to have two step up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The issue is the club isn't in charge of district points, they are
> >>>>>> (as Robert has pointed out) in charge of their affairs. And that's
> >>>>>> correct.. To me and most others it seems, NSRCA points are not BMFs
> >>>>>> affair. That belongs to the NSRCA. The NSRCA is an organization
> >>>>>> right? If we don't pay them we can't get district points right?
> >>>>>> Where is that confusing anyone?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I fully understand BMF and their decision. I could care less who
> >>>>>> they ban... It's about district points and why it is or isn't fair.
> >>>>>> It's not rocket science and perhaps you should put the shoe on the
> >>>>>> other foot also. I tried it on.. I returned it to the rightful owner
> >>>>>> after thinking about it carefully from the other side.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (Drops microphone) I'm out ✌️
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just kidding. Lighten up ffs.. This is a hobby...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the
> >>>>>> Champs, and the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF
> >>>>>> contest, which was just to try to help out after your contest
> >>>>>> was cancelled, plus no points for all BMF contests in the
> >>>>>> future, it will now be even harder for people of more limited
> >>>>>> means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it
> >>>>>> a "level playing field" for them?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the
> >>>>>> events you want, along with the Nats each year. Not only
> >>>>>> financially but when you can always travel in a group sharing
> >>>>>> the load. Not often the case when you're just getting in to
> >>>>>> pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that help me attend
> >>>>>> contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run or I
> >>>>>> can return home easily to stay the night.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests
> >>>>>> continue to dwindle. Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant
> >>>>>> contest.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tony
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 8:24 AM, joncarter60 via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I also am in agreement with Dale's points. It is simply about
> >>>>>> having a "level playing field" for the district championship.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jon Carter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Budd Engineering via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Date: 5/2/2016 8:15 AM (GMT-08:00)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To: Olstinske Dale <sanjosedale at gmail.com
> >>>>>> <mailto:sanjosedale at gmail.com>>, "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT"
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Olstinske Dale via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I love the BMF contests, one of the highlights of the year. I
> >>>>>> would always attend in any event, but I support John’s decision
> >>>>>> about district championship points. I really doubt the
> >>>>>> attendance would be hurt in anyway, just my opinion.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dale
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On May 1, 2016, at 4:20 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is NOT an attack on the Bear Mountain Club/Tony/Leon,
> >>>>>> (read my original
> >>>>>>>> post) It is a statement of policy, in that every and ALL
> >>>>>> members of the
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA and AMA should be able to compete in the district
> >>>>>> championships. Did
> >>>>>>>> anyone actually read my proposal???? . There should for
> >>>>>> pilots with the
> >>>>>>>> exception of legal actions due to NSRCA or AMA never be an
> >>>>>> exclusion to this
> >>>>>>>> policy.
> >>>>>>>> I have never said that anyone could not have a contest,
> >>>>>> however for that
> >>>>>>>> contest to be valid there can be no exclusions of pilots that
> >>>>>> are in good
> >>>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA There will be NO more personal
> >>>>>> attacks nor more
> >>>>>>>> personal vendettas. This is only about out district policy
> >>>>>> and nothing else.
> >>>>>>>> John Bentley
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 30 Apr 2016 04:58:39 PM MST
> >>>>>>>> From: John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>>> To: <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> All NSRCA D7 Members. It has come to my attention that
> >>>>>> members in good
> >>>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA are unable to fly at a contest
> >>>>>> site. Because of
> >>>>>>>> this, from this point no district championship points will
> >>>>>> be assigned at
> >>>>>>>> any
> >>>>>>>> contest that excludes a member that is in good standing with
> >>>>>> AMA and NSRCA.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now on the discussion about the Championship. The overall
> >>>>>> consensus is that
> >>>>>>>> there should be a single Championship and that Championship
> >>>>>> should move to
> >>>>>>>> different sites within D7. In all fairness since 4 contests
> >>>>>> have been flown
> >>>>>>>> there will be no change in how points are determined for the
> >>>>>> 2016 contest
> >>>>>>>> season.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have heard lots of talk on how the points are awarded .
> >>>>>> Here is my thought
> >>>>>>>> in how the contest(S) could be more competitive:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. Use 3 contests for qualification. Each pilot will be
> >>>>>> awarded 33 points for
> >>>>>>>> attendance plus 1 point for each person they beat in the
> >>>>>> contest.
> >>>>>>>> One contest can be used from out of district however that
> >>>>>> contest can not
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> any points given that is larger than the largest D7 contest
> >>>>>> attended.As an
> >>>>>>>> example if a pilot attended the NATS and beat 30 people but
> >>>>>> their largest
> >>>>>>>> class in D7 was 18 they could only be awarded 18 points extra
> >>>>>> not 30.
> >>>>>>>> 2. The championship Contest will count as 100 points plus 1
> >>>>>> point for each
> >>>>>>>> person beat.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3.The method for the calculation will be announced no later
> >>>>>> than Jan 1 2017
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
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> >>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
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> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >
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>
--
Chris Fitzsimmons
Team F3A Unlimited
Team BJ Aircraft
Team Airtronics
08/12 D7 Masters Champion
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