[NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods

JAMIE SCHOOLCRAFT jamieschoolcraft at icloud.com
Tue May 3 21:02:26 AKDT 2016 

Hot damn Robert just nailed exactly what I've been trying to say all along. No further comments from me as this is my exact stance as well!

Take Care,
Jamie

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2016, at 9:57 PM, Robert E Fish via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> I believe that in today's world there is not enough personal accountability and emphasis on the value of good citizenship. To make this comment neutral, I am going to put on the stinky shoes and play the role in this hypothetical scenario.
> 
> Let's say that I am barred from the Antelope Valley Tailwinds (where I am a member) for an unspecified egregious behavior(s). I acknowledge this behavior and accept responsibility for my actions, and the consequences therein.
> 
> The tailwinds hold two contests per year, and they are also the closest to my home. I cannot go to these contests. Since I am accountable for my behavior, I accept the consequences, among them is the extra burden that I brought upon myself in having to travel further and incur greater costs to participate in a district championship program for my hobby. This extra burden would be to participate in other events to take up the slack of the two Tailwinds events that I am not allowed to participate in due to my inappropriate behavior(s). Flying in model airplane contests is not a right or entitlement, but rather a privilege. If I could not afford the extra expense to travel to the additional contests, this would be entirely my fault, and I would have to live with that fact. It is entirely on me.
> 
> It would be a great incentive for me to repent in my behavior, and work diligently to regain my good standing with the tailwinds, firstly to repair my personal reputation, then subordinately to regain the privilege of flying at the Tailwinds facility again, even if it was on a time to time basis for competitive events, and maybe in the future to regain the potential for re-acceptance of membership privileges.
> 
> Robert Fish
> 
> 
> From: Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> To: Frackowiak Tony <frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>; "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 9:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> 
> 
> 
> This is your comment Tony... Chip lives in the same area and has a limited income right? Now he would have to travel further to get his required in.. 
> 
> So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the Champs, and the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF contest, which was just to try to help out after your contest was cancelled, plus no points for all BMF contests in the future, it will now be even harder for people of more limited means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it a "level playing field" for them?
> 
> I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the events you want, along with the Nats each year. Not only financially but when you can always travel in a group sharing the load. Not often the case when you're just getting in to pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that help me attend contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run or I can return home easily to stay the night. 
> 
> And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests continue to dwindle. Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant contest.
> 
> Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
> 
> Tony
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On May 3, 2016, at 8:35 PM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Thank you Don. I agree completely with your points about being in good standing.
> > 
> > Tony Frackowiak
> > 
> >> On May 3, 2016, at 6:49 AM, Donald Fox via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >> 
> >> I understand John’s stand but excluding points for district
> >> championship from any club is not the answer. I think John needs to
> >> sit down, take time and rethink his stance. I also think we are
> >> missing a valid point as to what a pilot in good standing is. Its not
> >> just being in good standing with the NSRCA and AMA but also to be in
> >> good standing with the club he or she is competing at. If you lack any
> >> of these three points, you are NOT a pilot in good standing. After
> >> all, we are thankful for the clubs that allow us to hold pattern
> >> contest at there facilities. There are more contest in D7 than in most
> >> other districts that a pilot in lesser standing can make up the
> >> difference (If expense and health allows). 4 contest, 3 contest, out
> >> for district or not, extra points for number of contestants, I don’t
> >> care. Its all good for me. I stand with Jamie on these issues. This
> >> discussion is getting almost as bad as the presidential race. Wake me
> >> when the bull shit and flies have left the field and these issues have
> >> been resolved. Maybe I’ll be back too. Till then, I’ll hang on to my
> >> fly swatter.
> >> 
> >> Donald!
> >> 
> >>> On 5/2/16, John Gayer via NSRCA-dist7 <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >>> As an annual participant in District 7 contests  but not a district 7
> >>> resident, I offer the following suggestion.
> >>> 
> >>> 1. It seems clear that any club has the right to ban an individual from
> >>> setting foot on the club premises. That does assume that the club has
> >>> the right to banish anyone. There are cases of clubs on publicly owned
> >>> land where that is not true.
> >>> 
> >>> 2. It is also clear that the NSRCA has the duty to set up a fair and
> >>> equitable means of determining district championships as best they can
> >>> for their membership. The National has delegated this responsibility to
> >>> the DVPs.
> >>> 
> >>> I suggest the DVP change the point accumulation rules to include the
> >>> following:
> >>> 
> >>>    1) All AMA sanctioned club results will be included in the points
> >>> calculations
> >>> 
> >>>    2) If a member in good standing with the AMA and the NSRCA is
> >>> banned from attending a qualified contest the following applies.
> >>> 
> >>> If the banned member in good standing cannot attend a replacement
> >>> contest due to scheduling or financial hardship in order to meet the
> >>> maximum allowable contest results under the rules, then his points for
> >>> that missing contest will be the average of the contests he did attend.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I don't see John's position as an attempt to "punish" a club. I'd be
> >>> willing to bet most of the attendees attend more contests than the
> >>> limit. Certainly the many out of district contestants don't care about
> >>> the status of the district points. Hold a great contest and they will
> >>> all come (and they have).
> >>> 
> >>> I'm sure the AMA would just look at the fact that the NSRCA did nothing
> >>> to prevent a contest being held or to invalidate the results obtained
> >>> and say "What's the problem?"
> >>> 
> >>> John Gayer
> >>> 
> >>>> On 5/2/2016 9:26 PM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >>>> NSRCA district points can not be issued by a flying field club.. Only
> >>>> by an NSRCA event where all can fly..
> >>>> 
> >>>> C
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>> 
> >>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:55 PM, JAMIE SCHOOLCRAFT via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> WELL SAID STEVE!!!!
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Take Care,
> >>>>> Jamie
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Steven Lampert via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> My problem with John’s position is that if a club, in accordance
> >>>>>> with its bylaws, acts to expel or ban an individual, then the NRCA’s
> >>>>>> decision to invalidate the points from an event hosted by that club
> >>>>>> effectively penalizes the club for taking action against such an
> >>>>>> individual.  The club is thus left with the unpalatable options of
> >>>>>> either tolerating the presence of this individual, or having their
> >>>>>> contest effectively marginalized and transformed into a glorified
> >>>>>> fun fly.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I really don’t question the authority of the NSRCA to exclude such a
> >>>>>> club from hosting an event that is conducted under the auspices of
> >>>>>> the NSRCA.  However , within the context of a club sponsored event,
> >>>>>> I think the NSRCA may be exceeding the legitimate bounds of its
> >>>>>> authority by effectively punishing a club in this manner.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> What I can’t seem to determine is what is the legitimate scope and
> >>>>>> source of the NSRCA’s authority in this regard…
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-dist7 [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of *Peter Vogel via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 2:11 PM
> >>>>>> *To:* Chris Fitzsimmons; CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> +1.  Well said Chris!
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Chris Fitzsimmons via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> No one is really missing out on any points or contest. Let's not
> >>>>>> forget the BMF contest was not even a contest till like a week ago.
> >>>>>> The guys up north are actually the main people missing out on a
> >>>>>> contest. Hence why the Fresno came in to replace it. And then BMF..
> >>>>>> Great to have two step up.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The issue is the club isn't in charge of district points, they are
> >>>>>> (as Robert has pointed out) in charge of their affairs. And that's
> >>>>>> correct.. To me and most others it seems, NSRCA points are not BMFs
> >>>>>> affair. That belongs to the NSRCA.  The NSRCA is an organization
> >>>>>> right? If we don't pay them we can't get district points right?
> >>>>>> Where is that confusing anyone?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I fully understand BMF and their decision. I could care less who
> >>>>>> they ban... It's about district points and why it is or isn't fair.
> >>>>>> It's not rocket science and perhaps you should put the shoe on the
> >>>>>> other foot also. I tried it on.. I returned it to the rightful owner
> >>>>>> after thinking about it carefully from the other side.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> (Drops microphone) I'm out ✌️
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Just kidding. Lighten up ffs.. This is a hobby...
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>> <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  So, with the retaining of the requirement for 4 contests for the
> >>>>>>  Champs, and the elimination of points from the upcoming BMF
> >>>>>>  contest, which was just to try to help out after your contest
> >>>>>>  was cancelled, plus no points for all BMF contests in the
> >>>>>>  future, it will now be even harder for people of more limited
> >>>>>>  means to compete for the District Champs. How does that make it
> >>>>>>  a "level playing field" for them?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  I guess it's no problem when you have the means to go to all the
> >>>>>>  events you want, along with the Nats each year. Not only
> >>>>>>  financially but when you can always travel in a group sharing
> >>>>>>  the load. Not often the case when you're just getting in to
> >>>>>>  pattern. I'm also lucky to have good friends that help me attend
> >>>>>>  contests. Otherwise I could only go to contests that I run or I
> >>>>>>  can return home easily to stay the night.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  And people wonder why the entrant counts at our contests
> >>>>>>  continue to dwindle. Or why there are 19 Masters in a 35 entrant
> >>>>>>  contest.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Still waiting for my return call, Jon.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Tony
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  On May 2, 2016, at 8:24 AM, joncarter60 via NSRCA-dist7 wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  I also am in agreement with Dale's points. It is simply about
> >>>>>>  having a "level playing field" for the district championship.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Jon Carter
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6 edge, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  -------- Original message --------
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  From: Budd Engineering via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>>  <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Date: 5/2/2016 8:15 AM (GMT-08:00)
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  To: Olstinske Dale <sanjosedale at gmail.com
> >>>>>>  <mailto:sanjosedale at gmail.com>>, "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT"
> >>>>>>  <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  +1
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On May 2, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Olstinske Dale via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>>  <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>>  <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I love the BMF contests, one of the highlights of the year. I
> >>>>>>  would always attend in any event, but I support John’s decision
> >>>>>>  about district championship points. I really doubt the
> >>>>>>  attendance would be hurt in anyway, just my opinion.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Dale
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On May 1, 2016, at 4:20 PM, John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>>  <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>>  <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> This is NOT an attack on the Bear Mountain Club/Tony/Leon,
> >>>>>>  (read my original
> >>>>>>>> post)  It is a statement of policy, in that  every  and ALL
> >>>>>>  members of the
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA and AMA should be able to compete in the district
> >>>>>>  championships.  Did
> >>>>>>>> anyone actually read my proposal???? . There should for
> >>>>>>  pilots with the
> >>>>>>>> exception of legal actions due to NSRCA or AMA never be an
> >>>>>>  exclusion to this
> >>>>>>>> policy.
> >>>>>>>> I have never said that anyone could not have a contest,
> >>>>>>  however for that
> >>>>>>>> contest to be valid there can be no exclusions of pilots that
> >>>>>>  are in good
> >>>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA  There will be NO more personal
> >>>>>>  attacks  nor more
> >>>>>>>> personal vendettas.  This is only about out district policy
> >>>>>>  and nothing else.
> >>>>>>>> John Bentley
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 30 Apr 2016 04:58:39 PM MST
> >>>>>>>> From: John Bentley via NSRCA-dist7
> >>>>>>  <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>>> To: <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>>  <mailto:nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] Championship Points and Methods
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> All NSRCA D7 Members. It has come to my attention that
> >>>>>>  members in good
> >>>>>>>> standing with AMA and NSRCA are unable to fly at a contest
> >>>>>>  site. Because of
> >>>>>>>> this, from this point  no district championship points will
> >>>>>>  be assigned at
> >>>>>>>> any
> >>>>>>>> contest that excludes a member that is in good standing with
> >>>>>>  AMA and NSRCA.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Now on the discussion about the Championship. The overall
> >>>>>>  consensus is that
> >>>>>>>> there should be a single Championship and that Championship
> >>>>>>  should move to
> >>>>>>>> different sites within D7. In all fairness  since 4 contests
> >>>>>>  have been flown
> >>>>>>>> there will be no change in how points are determined for the
> >>>>>>  2016 contest
> >>>>>>>> season.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> I have heard lots of talk on how the points are awarded .
> >>>>>>  Here is my thought
> >>>>>>>> in how the contest(S) could be more competitive:
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 1. Use 3 contests for qualification. Each pilot will be
> >>>>>>  awarded 33 points for
> >>>>>>>> attendance plus 1 point for each person they beat in the
> >>>>>> contest.
> >>>>>>>> One contest can be used from out of district however that
> >>>>>>  contest can not
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> any points given that is larger than the largest D7 contest
> >>>>>>  attended.As an
> >>>>>>>> example if a pilot attended the NATS and beat 30 people but
> >>>>>>  their largest
> >>>>>>>> class in D7 was 18 they could only be awarded 18 points extra
> >>>>>>  not 30.
> >>>>>>>> 2. The championship Contest will  count as 100 points plus 1
> >>>>>>  point for each
> >>>>>>>> person beat.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 3.The method for the calculation will be announced no later
> >>>>>>  than Jan 1 2017
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> NSRCA-dist7 mailing list
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> >>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>  _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
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