[NSRCA-dist7] Fwd: To all D7 pattern pilots
Peter Vogel
vogel.peter at gmail.com
Tue Jan 3 20:58:48 AKST 2012
No, just 2 flight lines, 3 "heats" (sub-rounds) per round: a, b, and c.
And yeah, I totally get how hard the judge assignment has got to be... It
seems like the matrix would help to avoid having one flight line go idle
while 5 more masters pilots finish off the round, it lets you effectively
parallelize getting through the masters. You could also do it like this:
R1a: M-grpX (Judges A+B), M-grpY (Judges C+D)
R1b: Intermediate, Sportsman
R1c: FAI, Advanced
With Intermediate, sportsman, FAI and Advanced paired as appropriate to
match the time the heat will take as closely as possible on the two
flightlines.
Peter+
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Jon Carter <joncarter60 at comcast.net> wrote:
> ** ** ** **
>
> Do you want to go to three flight lines? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Trust me, judging assignments are not as easy and smooth as simply writing
> down names. Selecting the judges and balancing lines is by far the most
> difficult job for the CD. Interesting idea though on doing a matrix for
> judging, it might be something to try this year.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,****
>
> ** **
>
> Jon Carter****
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Vogel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:32 PM
>
> *To:* CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Fwd: To all D7 pattern pilots
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> It depends on how you do it, assuming two flight positions like we usually
> seem to have at local contests:****
>
> ** **
>
> R1a: M-grpX (Judge A+B), Sportsman****
>
> R1b: M-grpY (Judge C+D), Intermediate ****
>
> R1c: FAI, Advanced****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> R2a: M-grpY (Judge A+B), Sportsman****
>
> R2b: M-grpX (Judge C+D), Intermediate****
>
> R2c: FAI, Advanced****
>
> ** **
>
> No pair of judges is in the seat more than 1.25 hours at a time, probably
> less. They do have to judge two rounds, but the total # of pilots they
> judge is the same. If you have a big sportsman and a small intermediate
> count (or vice-versa) you can vary the # of pilots in group X and Y so that
> no line goes idle. You could even start FAI or Advanced on one line if
> necessary.****
>
> ** **
>
> Peter+****
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Jon Carter <joncarter60 at comcast.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Yes, but for that 2.5 hours NOTHING has flown but Masters! This works out
> at the Nats but at the Nats you have 4 hours set aside to fly nothing but
> Masters.****
>
> ****
>
> Jon Carter****
>
> ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Vogel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:06 PM****
>
>
> *To:* CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Fwd: To all D7 pattern pilots****
>
> ****
>
> Well, with the matrix system you have 2 pilots sitting in a chair twice
> for a total of 2.5 hours but when they are done they'll have judged TWO
> rounds, not just one (though they'll have seen each individual pilot only
> once). If there are 10-11 masters pilots it becomes even more workable,
> because that makes each group of masters pilots about the same size as the
> sportsman & intermediate classes.****
>
> ****
>
> Peter+****
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Jon Carter <joncarter60 at comcast.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Peter – Interesting idea and I know that there are many ways to break up
> judging time etc etc but the bottom line if there are 16 Masters pilots at
> an event 2 pilots will be sitting in a chair for ~2.5 hours to judge a
> round of Masters! Let’s not forget that we also have 4 other classes to fly
> and judge! I’m not saying we will have 16 Masters at an event! We have not
> seen that yet but it’s possible. Much more likely are 10 or 11 Masters
> pilots. That’s still a solid 1.5 hours to get through in the chair! As you
> pointed out the matrix system, or a modification to it, is the rulebook
> proposal to deal with large classes It “kinda” works at the Nats but I
> don’t really see how it would benefit us too much at our local events.****
>
> ****
>
> Food for thought though,****
>
> ****
>
> Thanks,****
>
> ****
>
> Jon Carter****
>
> ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Vogel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2012 1:27 PM****
>
>
> *To:* CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT****
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-dist7] Fwd: To all D7 pattern pilots****
>
> ****
>
> Aren't there already rules in place that allow for "balancing" a class
> that's kind of big? It feels to me like we're trying to do gymnastics
> around the FAI class (which, I think, should be treated as FAI: 4 P and 2 F
> rounds, but then, I'm just a Sportsman, what do I know :-) to solve a
> problem in the Masters class. The masters class is a destination in and of
> itself, by the very nature of things, it will grow over time as people
> continue to matriculate into it. The solution is already in the rulebook
> though -- you can run more than one flight line for masters, with 2 sets of
> judges, as long as everyone flies in front of a given pair of judges an
> equal number of times, the scoring for the class as a whole works fine. So
> it would go something like this:****
>
> ****
>
> Today, you might take 1 advanced and 1 FAI pilot (call them A and B) to
> judge a full round 1 of, say 16 masters pilots, then another advanced and
> FAI pilot (call them C and D) to judge a full round 2 of the same 16
> masters pilots, etc.****
>
> ****
>
> Following the AMA rulebook, you could instead do this: ****
>
> 1. Break the 16 masters pilots into two groups X and Y, 8 pilots each****
>
> 2. In round 1 A+B judge group X, and C+D judge group Y****
>
> 3. In round 2 A+B judge group Y, and C+D judge group X****
>
> ****
>
> Similarly for rounds 3+4 (judges E-H) , 5+6 (judges I-L).****
>
> ****
>
> Same amount of overall time in the judges chair for A,B,C+D, etc. but
> instead of having completed only 1 round of judging, they've completed 2,
> and broke the chair time with a flight of their own in advanced + FAI
> rounds.****
>
> ****
>
> Rounds would complete somewhat faster, in theory, but at some point the
> flightline is consumed entirely by masters pilots, or you run sportsman +
> masters group X on left + right stations and then intermediate and masters
> group Y on left+right stations, then advanced + FAI on left + right
> stations. But you never have one line idle for an extended period while
> the other is still pumping masters pilots through a round****
>
> ****
>
> Peter+****
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Dale Olstinske <dale at cadence.com> wrote:*
> ***
>
> Derek, The intention is not to force anyone to FAI, rather create an
> environment whereby a Masters pilot who otherwise would not, may move to
> FAI. ****
>
> ****
>
> That said, how would we handle a contest with say 25 contestants, and 15
> + masters pilots? I think is could very well happen. We couldn’t put
> everyone on one line, that could take 2.5 hrs to complete a round, with no
> judging snafu’s, probably longer.****
>
> ****
>
> Dale****
>
> ****
>
> *From:* nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of *Derek Koopowitz
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2012 8:31 AM
> *To:* NSRCA Dist7
> *Subject:* [NSRCA-dist7] Fwd: To all D7 pattern pilots****
>
> ****
>
> Jon,****
>
> ****
>
> I’ve been mulling this over since the original email from you…****
>
> ****
>
> Here are my thoughts – leave it as is. The problem isn’t with F3A… it’s
> with Masters. I don’t see why we have to modify the F3A format to fix a
> problem with Masters. That doesn’t make any sense at all.****
>
> ****
>
> My preference is to have the same format as we did last year – if the F3A
> pilot wants to fly F then let them fly F… if they don’t then fly P without
> a penalty.****
>
> ****
>
> Let’s come up with a workable solution for Masters – not break up F3A to
> fix Masters. Masters is THE destination class for AMA – not F3A. There is
> no way I would force anyone up from Masters just to clear up a logjam in
> the class… we can come up with other, better solutions.****
>
> ****
>
> Best,****
>
> ****
>
> -Derek****
>
> ****
>
> *From:* Jon Carter [mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net]
> *Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2012 1:48 PM
> *To:* CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT
> *Cc:* Adrian Wong; Bill Sneed; Bill Wallace; Dale Olstinske; Derek
> Koopowitz; Dick Belden; Don Atwood; Frank Capone; Frohreich, Greg; Jarvis
> Johnson; Jerry Budd; Jim Oddino; krishlan fitzsimmons; kysung at comcast.net;
> Luke Peng; Lynn Burks; LuvtheRocs at aol.com; rob at koolsoft.com; Robert
> Gillespie; Ron Davies; completemarine02 at sprintpcs.com; steve hannah;
> Terry Walker; Tom Messer; 'Jon Carter'
> *Subject:* To all D7 pattern pilots ****
>
> ****
>
> Happy New Year to all!!!****
>
> ****
>
> Here is an e-mail I have been working on for the last month. I am finally
> sending it out to start the discussion process. If there are pilots who I
> have missed, please feel free to forward this e-mail to them.****
>
> ****
>
> FAI and Masters in District 7: Issues and Opportunities****
>
> ****
>
> I want to start some discussion among FAI pilots, Masters pilots and CDs
> about the FAI and Masters class in District 7. Please keep in mind that
> this discussion needs to focus on our experience here in District 7. This
> is a revision to a section of my K-Factor article that will appear in
> January. Given publication deadlines, I did not have the opportunity to get
> very much feedback before I had to submit the article! I have since
> received some feedback which I have added and this e-mail is my attempt to
> get more.****
>
> ****
>
> In 2010 I heard from some of our local FAI pilots that they would like to
> fly the finals or “F” sequence at local meets. They felt that getting the
> opportunity to fly judged “F” sequences at our local contests would help
> them improve their flying and enable them to be more competitive at the
> Nats. I also heard that “FAI has two sequences so we really should fly them
> both in order to “really” fly FAI” I polled and spoke to most of the FAI
> pilots in our district and came up with a proposal. In 2010 we flew two
> rounds of judged “F” at local contests but if a pilot did not want to fly
> “F” he could fly “P” for those two rounds with no penalty. (We worked out a
> K-factor modification in an attempt to score “P” and “F” together) In 2011
> we went one step further and had everyone fly two rounds of “F” at local
> contests. If a pilot did not want to fly “F” he took a zero for those two
> rounds. I definitely heard some feedback about that! I think the attendance
> numbers speak for themselves. In 2009 (“P” only) we had the highest number
> of pilots fly FAI since I have been the district scorekeeper. At some local
> contests we had more FAI pilots than Masters. This number dropped in 2010
> (“P” and “F” sort of “fudged” together) and it fell even further in 2011
> (“P” & “F”). Concurrently, we have a LOT of Masters pilots! This creates
> real problems for the CDs in balancing the lines, and for the judges,
> usually FAI and Advanced pilots, who spend way too much time in the chair.
> I have heard from many pilots this year that they do not have the time or
> the inclination to fly the “F” sequence but they really enjoy the extra
> challenge of the “P” sequence. This leads me to a discussion of some
> proposed solution for 2012. Please keep in mind that we are just discussing
> proposals at this point. ****
>
> ****
>
> *Option 1*****
>
> ****
>
> Don’t do anything. We continue to fly FAI with 4 rounds of P and two
> rounds of F. At local contests last year we flew this way and simply
> counted the best 4 rounds. That way you do not have to “keep” an F score.
> At the district championships you must keep an F score. ****
>
> ****
>
> *Advantages*****
>
> Keeps things the same as last year, we continue to fly the “full” FAI
> pattern.****
>
> Gives our local pilots who want to fly at the Nats a chance to fly judged
> “F” patterns.****
>
> ****
>
> *Disadvantages*****
>
> Many pilots don’t seem to want to fly F and so they stay in Masters
> creating a “bulge” that makes the CDs and the contestant judges lives more
> difficult.****
>
> We seem to be having a declining # of pilots in FAI.****
>
> ****
>
> *Option 2*****
>
> ****
>
> Go back to the way we did it in 2010 and let some people fly P and some
> fly F and do some sort of score “fudge”.****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> *Advantages*****
>
> Kind of a middle ground solution. Might get some pilots to leave Masters
> and try FAI. ****
>
> ****
>
> *Disadvantages*****
>
> I don’t really care for “fudge’ing” scoring. It just doesn’t seem right in
> a competitive sport.****
>
> ****
>
> *Option 3*****
>
> ****
>
> Split FAI into two “divisions” let’s call them “Gold” and “Silver” these
> two divisions are competed for and scored separately. Here’s a simple
> description.****
>
> ****
>
> *FAI “Gold”*****
>
> ****
>
> This class will fly 4 rounds of the “P” sequence and two rounds of the “F”
> sequence at each local contest. Their final contest score will consist of
> their best 3 out of 4 “P” rounds and their best 1 out of 2 “F” rounds. This
> will also be the format used for FAI “Gold” at the district championship
> contest. If there is enough interest we could even fly an unknown round at
> the season championships.****
>
> ****
>
> *FAI “Silver”*****
>
> ****
>
> This class will fly 6 rounds of the “P” sequence at each local contest.
> Their final contest score will consist of their best 4 out of 6 “P” rounds.
> This will also be the format used for FAI “Silver” at the district
> championship contest.****
>
> ****
>
> A pilot may enter either class at any contest. You cannot fly in both at
> one contest though! You can change back and forth as many as you want to
> during the pattern year.****
>
> ****
>
> *Advantages:*****
>
> Possibly increase the pilots flying FAI and reduce the pilots in Masters.
> This will greatly simplify line balancing and judging assignments. Gold
> pilots are perfect judges for Silver and vice a versa. Masters pilots can
> judge Gold, Silver or Advanced. ****
>
> Reduce the length of time spent in the judging chair. Judging 10 Masters
> pilots is not an easy task and requires you to be in the judging chair for
> almost an hour and a half. Not very fun at a local contest!****
>
> Make the CDs job of finding and assigning judges much easier.****
>
> Might improve competition within FAI (Gold and Silver) and Masters.****
>
> ****
>
> *Disadvantages:*****
>
> The CD needs to provide one more set of trophies. Extra cost is “bad”!****
>
> Depending on who shows up the CD might have extra trophies that he will
> have to “eat”****
>
> Further splits a small pool of competitors. How many pilots will fly
> “Gold”, maybe not enough to have a fun competition?****
>
> ****
>
> I think the trophy problem can be worked around. By the time we get to be
> a Masters or an FAI pilot do we really need to get a trophy at a local
> contest? I know I don’t! A simple group photo or a medal or a simple metal
> plaque that lists the event and the class would be fine. At my contests
> this year I intend to simplify the Masters and FAI trophies regardless of
> what we do with FAI. In regards to the other issues I don’t know.****
>
> ****
>
> Please bear in mind that I am looking for ideas and proposals. If you are
> a Masters or FAI pilot and you don’t think that anything is “broke” just
> let me know! If most Masters and FAI pilots think it ain’t broke then we
> won’t “fix it”!!! (Option 1) Or if you don’t like any of my proposals but
> have another thought in mind just let me know. So to you FAI and Masters
> pilots and Cds out there, think about it and please let me hear from you.*
> ***
>
> ****
>
> Jon Carter****
>
> NSRCA D7 VP****
>
> ****
>
>
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> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-dist7****
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>
>
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> -- ****
>
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training****
>
> **Santa Clara** ****County** **Model**** Aircraft Skypark****
>
> ****
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> ****
>
> -- ****
>
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training****
>
> **Santa Clara** ****County** **Model**** Aircraft Skypark****
>
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> ****
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> ** **
>
> -- ****
>
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training****
>
> **Santa Clara** ****County** **Model**** Aircraft Skypark****
>
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