[NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level

Mon Mar 15 10:50:32 AKDT 2010

Hello,
 Let me start by saying I don't fly FAI but I have been following this discussion as a CD & have a few points to bring into this discussion.
1. Jon stated in his proposal that the dist. championship will fly P only. Points earned in any contest previous to the dist  that flew F could be inaccurate.
2. There is the possibility that some FAI fliers may not show or may elect to fly another class at contest that  fly F.
3. By some fliers flying P the last 2 rounds & some flying F using P score sheets could ( will ) have an affect on the final standings. This has happened in the past & will have happen again.
The above points could affect the district championships not only in FAI but in other classes as well. The issue of whether to fly F at local contests should have been made before the contest season started & not after.Flying F under Jon's propsal also puts more work on the CD, the scorekeepers & the people who judge FAI.
 This is my opion for what it is worth.

Bob G.

--- On Mon, 3/15/10, Tom Messer <thomas_messer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

From: Tom Messer <thomas_messer at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level
To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 7:35 AM

Guys, 

I think Jon's proposal is a fair approach on how to integrate this idea into the District. As he stated, the season has already. In the three or four contests, F was not flown in a formal matter. To switch midstream would compromise the integrity of the points, and also throw a wrench into the plans of the guys who are planning on flying FAI this year and are not prepared to fly F.

This proposal, allows for us to fly P and F next year after a year of integration at some contests at the discretion of the CDs. To mandate P and F to be flown this year would be, in my opinion, unfair considering the season has already started, and will also lead Masters issue getting even more out of hand.

"Do it or don't do it." I agree wholeheartedly, but, flying F on a P scoresheet is "not doing it". 

This came up to help guys get ready for the Nats. Do they want to fly F in front of judges to prepare for the Nats, or to compete and win locally flying F? If it's the former, this will help with cooperation with the contestants at the contests. If it's the latter... well, I don't know what to say except to wait for next year.

This proposal has been out for five days and until last night, not one word against it.  I doubt everybody else has had email issues like Tony. Whoever wants this, P and F... SPEAK UP NOW! Or forever hold your peace.

Tom

On Mar 15, 2010, at 6:34 AM, Steve Hannah wrote:

Bill
I support your idea to split the class.  I'd rather do two short stints vs one monster long one. Talk about things that can drive FAI flyers away, that long sequence and marathon judging sessions is about ready to do it to me. I think the CD should mandate a shortened sequence any time there are more than 5 fliers. Plus you should split the line if more than 8 show up. 

As for FAI F:  I don't support the pilots option or CD option. The current proposal is effectively doing nothing beyond what we have right now. Either we do it or we don't. If I have the choice to optionally throw away two rounds then I'll probably opt to not do that and fly P. If I have 4 solid rounds and my choice is to drive home early or fly F then I might fly F even though it wouldn't have any bearing on the outcome. 

Pilots already fly F on the P score sheets. I'd hope that we could introduce an F seuence somehow but the voluntary optional thing doesn't work for me. I can do that now but the results don't mean anything. So I'll fly P until further notice.

Do it or don't do it.  

Steve 
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2010, at 10:20 AM, "Wallace, Bill" <WallaceBill at bfusa.com> wrote:

Tony:
My take on this is that we are not going to dictate to the CD’s hoe to run their contest.  John has suggested that if the FAI flyers want to fly the F sequence, then the CD can run the last 2 rounds as either F or P to be decided by the pilot.  If he decides to fly the F then he will be scored at the P schedule K factors.  In my opinion, this is a fair way to run it, and is how I am going to run the Hemet contest.  If the FAI pilots don’t like this, then they should speak up now or don’t gripe about it come contest day.  Let’s face it, we are never going to make everyone happy, but this proposal does the best job of it – again in my never to be humble opinion.  Since Jon proposed this, and I think he will be running the Dist. Championships, then I think we can assume that this is how they will be run.  Again, if you are a FAI pilot and you don’t like this suggestion, speak up now.  Now Jon – if I am wrong on this let me know.  A
 more pressing problem, IMO, is the heavily loaded Masters class we have in Dist. 7.  At Yuma – half of the registered pilots were in Masters (8).  If we have a good size contest (ie Riverside or Hemet) we could have 12 – 15 Masters pilots.  This will create havoc for the CD and the poor FAI and Advanced pilots who have to sit in the chair for 2 – 2 ½ hours.  My thoughts are to split the class if the number gets over 10 and have the same judges for 2 rounds, but they would only have to judge ½ the pilots each round.  Then we would hold off normalizing until the end of the 2nd round.  I am thinking this would make the judging a little more tolerable.  Looking for comments and or other suggestions.  Thanks.  

Bill Wallace 
Fleet Sales Manager 
Bridgestone Bandag Tire Solutions 
4000 E. Mission Blvd. 
Ontario, CA  91761 
Cell Phone - 951-385-2605 
Fax number - 615-493-2333 

This message is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. It may contain privileged, confidential information which is exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are prohibited from disseminating or distributing this information (other than to the intended recipient) or copying this information. If you have received this in error, please notify me immediately at bwallace at bandag.com or at 951-385-2605. Thank you.

From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:17 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level

Hi Jon,

Somehow this slipped through on my email, so I'm just responding now.

With all due respect (whenever I say that I think of Ricky Bobby!) I don't see why there can't be some sort of approval by the majority of the F3A fliers. A simple yes/no and posting the results would suffice. Without that, it looks like just one guys ideas being pressed forward.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the entire idea of this discussion was to come to an agreement amongst all the F3A pilots on what to do in this district? If you leave it up to the individual CD's, will the D7 Championships be decided by that CD?

Thanks!

Tony

On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:18 PM, Jon Carter wrote:

Tony – There is no real “official” process per se to vote on this proposal. As I said, I believe that this is a first “doable” step in a process and unless I hear some strong objections from some FAI pilots my intention is to forward my proposal to each CD who is running a D7 contest with my recommendation to implement it if possible for their contest. Please keep in mind that this decision is ultimately the CD’s of the individual events.

Thanks

Jon Carter

NSRCA D7 VP

From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:08 AM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] A proposal for FAI at the local level

Hi,

I will have no problem supporting this if this what the majority of the F3A pilots have agreed upon. Is there a process to come to a majority agreement?

Tony

On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Jon Carter wrote:

Local contests and FAI: A modest Proposal.

As I have indicated on the D7 list and in e-mails to most of the D7 FAI pilots I think that we need to come to a decision/recommendation for the FAI class at local contests as soon as possible. At this point I have spoken with almost every D7 pilot who flew in an FAI contest during the 2009 season. I would like to begin by stating some facts, some assumptions and some goals.

Facts:

The 2010 contest season started in Phoenix on 11/14/2009 and we are 3 contests into the season.
Since we have already begun the season, I do not support adding “F” as a required element at the D7 Championships for the 2010 season.
There are strong opinions on both sides of this issue.
Adding the “F” schedule at local contests is a significant change to the way we have “traditionally” flown FAI.
It is up to each individual CD to structure and run his contest in a manner that follows the rules and satisfies the needs of his club and his pilots.

Assumptions:

Most D7 FAI pilots support an option to assist the pilots who go to the Nats by providing them with a way to fly judged “F” sequences.
Many D7 FAI pilots think that flying the “F’ sequence at local contests would be fun, challenging and a way to more fully align ourselves with what it means to fly “FAI”
There will be a significant “learning” curve in judging the “F” sequence.

Goals:

Arrive at a set of guidelines for the 2010 season that will give an event CD a framework for running the FAI class this year and allow pilots who choose to, the ability to fly “F” and receive scores.
Provide a path that will allow us to offer the “F” sequence at local contests and the District Championships in 2011 and going forward if so desired.
If we make changes, ensure that a process of review is completed to determine the positive or negative impact of the changes after the season

Proposal for the remainder of this year

Any FAI pilot who wants to may fly two rounds of F at a local contest, with the CD’s permission. To simplify things for the CD I think that this should be limited to the last two rounds on Sunday. If the CD is willing to permit this, it must be mentioned as far in advance as possible. (On the website and in the contest flyer at the minimum) If the CD does not want to fly the “F” sequence, or no pilots want to, FAI will be flown as usual with a best 4 out of 6 “P” sequences.

The F schedule scores will simply be entered into the computer as a P schedule. This will apply the “P” K-Factors to the “F” sequence. This is obviously a “handicap” for the pilots who choose to fly the “F” sequence (~17%). It does though allow them to fly the “F” sequence in front of judges and receive scores that they can review for areas that need improvement.

All other scoring, i.e. count the best 4 out of 6 rounds, will be kept as is.

District Championships

The District Championship will be flown as a Schedule “P” contest only. As I mentioned up above, we are 3 contests into the 2010 season and I do not think that it is proper to make a change of this magnitude for the District Championships at this time.

The Future

I believe that we should observe these changes and their impact on our local FAI contests for the remainder of this season. If they appear to be positive and the majority of the FAI flyers like them we could make another step next year. If the idea has strong local FAI pilot support, I would support making our local FAI contests a best 3 out of 4 “P” and a best 1 out of 2 “F” for 2011. Please keep in mind that by trying something different this year we are not committing ourselves to any changes for next year. If we adopt this proposal we have most of a year for pilots to see “F” flown locally and for the rest of us to learn how to judge it! Remember our goal is to compete, improve our piloting skills and have fun!

Thanks

Jon Carter

NSRCA D7 VP

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