[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

Fri Mar 5 15:06:00 AKST 2010

Well, we have certainly kicked off an interesting discussion!! 

I would like to get a broader range of opinions so I could use some help
from some of you! Here is a list of everyone who flew FAI at a D7 contest in
2009.

FAI

Don Atwood **

Greg Frohreich ****

Jim Kimbro **

Bill Sheets

Chip Hyde **

Tom Messer **

Bill Wallace

Troy Newman

Steve Hannah **

Matt Kimbro **

Adrian Wong **

Frank Capone ****

Derek Koopowitz **

Bob Obregon ****

Chris Fitzsimmons **

Mark Leseberg

Craig Blodgett

17 total pilots.

9 opinions received.

3 pending.

I have heard from everyone on this list with two asterisks after their name.
I have e-mailed the guys who have 4 asterisks after their name. 

So that leaves, Bill Sheets, Bill Wallace, Troy Newman, Mark Leseberg and
Craig Blodgett. I do not have e-mail info for these guys. If any of the rest
of you do, could you please forward a copy of the relevant e-mails from the
D7 list to these guys and ask them to contact me? My home e-mail is
joncarter60 at comcast.net 

Thanks

Jon Carter

  _____  

From: nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Tom Messer
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:24 PM
To: CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

The reason I say it that way is that doing so would institute a change in
how we do things now. It's not my idea NOT to fly F or an unknown. I just
don't because we don't do it. Simple. I started flying FAI for a couple
reasons that I won't bore anybody with here, but when I started flying it we
flew P solely. Just as you did when you flew FAI. So it's not just me, the
northern crew, or all of D7 who is "not really signing up for the F3A
event", that is just how we did it. We also don't do noise tests, or weigh
airplanes... but that's another issue.

I agree with you though that if we do this, we should do it whole hog and
fly best 3 of 4 of P and best of 2 F... etc. But so far the only proposal of
those who want to do this was to slip it in and have some fly this or some
fly that. In my humble opinion, that is not right, not fair, and it is not
something we should do... it will lead to problems.

Other than that, we have heard from exactly 3 on this list and on RCU from
this district on this matter. Three out of the 15 that flew in a D7 contest
does not a majority make. If there are more, please speak up!

Tony you can, and should, do whatever you feel is best for your contest...
just as I will for mine. But since this is a change in philosophy and
practice for how the FAI event is held locally, I think it should be up to
us who fly it to decide... and for that matter, up to those who want a
change to prove their case.

Frankly, the best way to do that is for them to hold their own contest and
show us how it should be done. Your contest could be the first step in that
process should you decide to go forward.

Tom M

On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:53 PM, Tom Messer wrote:

Sorry last message was sent unfinished. Standby for the quick finale. 

Tom M

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Tom Messer <thomas_messer at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Thanks for your insight Tony, your comments and views as a CD are important,
but as you noted earlier you don't fly FAI anymore so while your vote may
not count, Your insight does. 

The purpose and intent of the three different sequences for F3A is to
systematically wittle down the number of contestants at a lrge contest until
you have one winner. P is is a rite of passage in essence and if you are
worthy you move on to fly F and so on... Obviously you k ow this but my
point is we don't have that problem in the district so there is no need to
employ all that... Unless we who fly F3A want to. 

The reason I say it that way is that doing so would institute a change in
how we do things now. It's not my idea NOT to fly F or an unknown. I just
don't because we don't do it. Simple. I started flying FAI for a couple
reasons that

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Anthony Frackowiak <
<mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net> frackowiak at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Tom,

I'm going to answer your questions with my viewpoint.

I think the purpose of holding pattern contests is to conduct as fair as
possible a competition that will select the various winners in each of the
classes. The CD of each contest is obligated to run the event within the
rules as closely as possible. It is then up to each of the entrants to a
contest to decide if this is "fun" for them. I think everyone may have
different ideas of what is fun. For some, it is only fun if they win. For
others it is getting together with people of like interests. For others it
is seeing how they stack up to the other fliers. IOW, just the act of
competition is their enjoyment. I hope we can keep in mind that pattern
events are competitions. They are not fly-ins or seminars. They are
contests. I suggest if all someone wants to do is fly, then stay at home.
You'll get a whole lot more flights.

The F3A event consists of two known patterns and an unknown. I suggest that
someone entering the F3A arena with the opinion that all they are going to
do is fly P is not really signing up to the F3A event. I feel they if all
they want to do is fly one pattern, then an AMA class is a much better
option. I know about all the possible problems we could have if a
substantial number of F3A pilots moved to Masters. I think we would have to
cross that bridge when it comes up. But the option is there. It's not like
we would be telling all the F3A pilots who don't want to fly F to go away. I
would just invite them to one of the others classes that are offered.

Keep in mind the why's for the F3A rules. In most countries, when they have
a pattern event, the only class that is offered is F3A. They don't have the
options that we do in the USA. And in most other countries, they will only
fly one model at a time. So a local event has a very limited number of
flights. With that limit, most events can only fly P. That is exactly why
the Note 1 I posted is in the rules. In the USA, 6 rounds have become the
standard that we want at our local events. We fly multiple flight lines,
accepting the risk of mid-airs. We can much more easily fly F.

Years ago we had two patterns. A & B, then B & C, then C & D, and so on.
They were increasingly difficult but not at the difference they are now. And
of course, there was no unknown. And we always flew both patterns at the
local meets. It was good for everyone. The pilots got in contest experience
with both and the judges saw the patterns. The F3A event has certainly
changed since then. Some like the changes and others, myself included, do
not. But if you decide to fly F3A, I feel you should commit to flying the
full event. 

I think it is important that as an NSRCA district that conducts a District
Championships, and selects Champions in each of the classes, we should come
up with an SOP for all the contests that fits the rules as well as possible.
And to throw this out, I think at the District Championships, there should
be P, F and at least one unknown. I think an awful lot of people would be
interested in seeing that!

Again, most of this is just my opinion.

Tony

On Mar 5, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Tom Messer wrote:

No link is required, it's in the name... F stands for finals and I think
it's inferred as to what it's purpose is. We don't have a finals for local
or even district contests, so there's little need to run the sequence for
our historical purposes. 

Your point is valid about best 3 of 4 of P, and additional Fs as required...
In my mind I think that is the only correct way to do it if we decide that's
what we want... It is

Spelled out in the rules and it for all to read and we aren't holding one
person to a different standard than another. Personally I think that it's
contrary to our culture and will affect masters and possibly attendance with
the regulars. 

What concerns me about this change, if it's made, is that I'd we fly F at
local contests, then we should do it at the districts as well.. if we call
that a true "championship", then how long until we add unknowns? 

What is our purpose here? Fun for all or prep for a few?

Tom M

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