[NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests

[krishlan fitzsimmons]

I think Imac is much more difficult than pattern Steve, and with this being said, I have always said that I think the P sequence should be as difficult as the current F sequence. If you make it to FAI, it shouldn't be a cakewalk... The last few FAI P sequences aren't as difficult as the Masters sequence. It seems when FAI gets difficult, people move to Masters. Does FAI want to judge Masters almost every round? Because that's what will need to happen as FAI will become very small. Or we will have to use Intermediate and Sportsman to judge Masters (We already use Advanced). We went through this situation before. It's fine that it came back up. And it will continue to do so as the years pass. The majority didn't want it last time, and from who I have heard from, they don't want it this time. Most will not post their thoughts (probably because they are much smarter than I), so you will not hear how many don't want it. At least, that's how it went last time. 

No worries either way for me. I was going to offer it for the Oakdale contest, but I have received negative feedback about it. It got me to thinking of how it could be done regardless of what sequence you want to fly. This is what I came up with. 

Say you fly P, and you score 85% of the possible max, but the next guy wants to fly F. Well, F is difficult right? So he scores 70% of max. If we determine the percentage of max, Then average all of the round together, the P guy will still win the round most likely and the F scores won't affect the P guys (the majority who don't want to fly F). Does it matter to you if you fly F and you don't win the round? My guess, and it is a guess, is that if you are flying F, you are doing it to be judged to go to the nats. So you get judged, find out how your scores are, and you see what you need to work on. Isn't this somewhat the point of what Tony has brought up? I can't see where this couldn't work for both sides with a little tweaking. 
In possibly a guy like your case Steve, say you aren't going to the nats, but you want the challenge, the experience, and the possibility of becoming a better pilot (which I full agree with), does the wood matter at this point? ( I believe Bill Sheets fly's F for these reasons and I have watched him progressively improve). Does it matter that you don't win first at the contest? Heck, maybe you won four P rounds already.. Perhaps with my idea we could still take your best 4 rounds.. So if you want to fly 4 P and 2 F, then you still got your 4 best rounds anyway. Perhaps you are going to the nats and you want to fly 6 F's for good practice and to know what you need to work on.. Awesome, go for it.. This would easily be possible and your best 4 rounds (comparitively from the percent of max standpoint) would count. 

Could something like this work? I don't know. But I do know that there are some smart guys in our district and I'm sure we can all come up with something that works for all. 


 
Chris 
 
 
 




________________________________
From: Steve Hannah <shannah1806 at gmail.com>
To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 5:34:48 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests


This will be short since I am on my iPhone. Ha ha

Years ago I would have agreed with Chris and Derek. That was before my IMAC days. Yes people can actually judge complex routines. Do they do a good job at it?  Not at first but they start to figure it out after a while. Sometimes it takes a lot of judge coaching. 

Second, flying the insanely complex unknowns in Advanced and Unlimited taught me how to just suck it up and do my best. You don't need to burns gallons of fuel or megawatts of electricity. You just go do your best. Sure there will be guys flying F over and over. Good for them. The majority of us are in the same boat with each other, we don't have time.   It really will make you a better flier to go try some things out of your comfort zone  

As I have heard it stated through the years, Pattern fliers can be seen as prima donnas.  I hate the thought of that. One thing that drives it home, in my opinion, is having folks be afraid to step up to the plate and blow chunks all over the sky while they butcher the routine. They don't want to look bad. Just get over it. Flying unknowns taught me how to do that. Just go out, have fun, learn from it, and relax.  So what if you blow it. Most everyone else will too. You will, however, feel a lot of accomplishment when you scores improve. And they will improve. 

Yes this will benefit the guys going to the nats. I think that is a good thing. Tighten up the judging for P (doesn't matter if we fly F or not) and get our guys some contest exposure to F. It helps our district. 

Lastly, this should not be a "pilots choice".  That screws up a lot of things. I like the idea of one scored round of F. Do well and you keep it. Blow it and it will be a drop. 

Personally, I will suck at it but I don't care. I really think it is good for the sport.  I've already seen it draw interest from my local IMAC and 3D crowd. It might help attract fliers.  

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:


Ah, who cares about a flame suit.. lol
> 
>I think it's fine, just shouldn't be mandatory.. If you make it mandatory it takes away from the majority of FAI pilots. These pilots (the majority) don't seem to want to fly F because they aren't going to the nats and don't want to fly it. They are the one's supporting the local contests right? So we should tell them you have to fly F so that the few FAI pilots in our district that are going to the nats can fly it and get judged? Judged by who? Who is qualified to judge it? Heck, I don't know how to judge some of it. Could I guess my way through it? Sure, most likely. The first couple of guys flying it would probably be scored easier than the last guys IMO. What will happen to those pilots if we try to force this on them? Are their batteries (if electric) large enough to fly the F sequence, or does this create an extra burden on them to get bigger packs? I assume a glow guy would have a big enough tank.. It will also
> create another burden by having to setup different flight modes for the second sequence. It requires different things of the model. 
> 
>On the other side, if you force people to fly both, they will become better pilots IMO. They may lose a plane or 2 (just kidding), but eventually it will help their skills IMO. I know learning new sequences has helped me tremendously. Another plus is that the guys who are judging will get to be better judges IMO. Other districts are doing this, let's not forget. 
> 
>So, I am planning on moving to FAI pretty soon. Do I want to fly both?? No, not unless I can quit my job and go fly everyday so that I can be competitive.. Which I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen..
> 
>My advice on the situation is if someone wants to fly it, lets have the scoring in the computer so that it's possible. It can be done, it's not that difficult.. But don't make those who "have a busy life outside of pattern" have to learn another sequence. If that happens, FAI pilots are going to really dislike having to sit in the judges seat for 3 rounds a contest.. Masters will get really huge.. 
> 
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> 
>Chris 
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________________________________
 From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at comcast.net>
>To: "CA, AZ, HI, NV, UT" <nsrca-dist7 at lists.nsrca.org>
>Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 10:29:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
>
> >
>Flame suit on…
> 
>Are we really ready to let our judges loose on an F schedule?   I’m serious here… we have only a few very qualified judges that are capable of judging these sequences and we’re now going to ask them to judge an F schedule.  I’ve seen way too many F3A pilots fly out of the box without getting penalized, radii not flown consistently and not being penalized, roles in lines not positioned properly and not being penalized and then we’re going to ask these same judges to judge a sequence with 9 snaps, multiple elements in a maneuver and expect the outcome to be fair?
> 
>I know I’ve just flipped this around into a judging issue but that’s where I believe it lies.  Several D7 pilots want to go to the Nats, but as we’ve seen in past years, they have not been treated too kindly by the Nats judges and that’s because they consistently win or place well here without flying the sequence the way it should be flown, and when they get to the Nats they get hammered.
> 
>Find good and consistent judges for F3A and then I’d say we have a shot at flying the P and F schedules and having an outcome that is fair.
> 
>And to answer your question, Jon… I intend to learn to fly the F sequence as I think it’ll make me a better pilot.  It’ll take a long time before I even consider myself contest ready with it since I’m only now starting to fly the P sequence and I’m just concentrating on the 1st part of it at this time.  Will I be ready to fly F any time soon – no.  If the option is available to fly F during a contest then I will more than likely take it provided that I have practiced it and am comfortable with it.  That definitely won’t be in March, April or May I’m afraid… perhaps June onwards.  I think 4 rounds of P and 2 of F would be good with the best 3 of P and the best F to count.  Now, for those pilots that don’t want to fly F – they can fly all 6 rounds of P and count their best 4.  I do not think we
> should exclude anyone from flying.
> 
>From:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-dist7-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Carter
>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:56 PM
>To: CA, AZ, HI, NV,UT
>Subject: [NSRCA-dist7] FAI: F sequence at local contests
> 
>To:        D7 FAI pilots and those D7 pilots who are considering flying FAI at a D7 2010 contest.
> 
>From:    Jon Carter NSRCA D7 VP
> 
>I am soliciting input from all D7 FAI pilots on the question of whether to attempt to fly some F rounds at local contests. This is currently being discussed on RCU (I have attached a link to the discussion)
> 
>http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9548995/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm 
> 
>I personally think that there are good points made on each “side” of the discussion. I would like to get some feedback from all of you (D7 FAI pilots) as to your preference. I know that not all of you read this list either but I think that I have e-mail addresses for most of the current FAI pilots and I know who you are! So, if I do not hear from some of you I will be sending out some personal e-mails.
> 
>Let me state my initial assumptions:
>            
>1) We do this to have fun!           
>2) At a local contest it is the CD’s discretion as to how he runs the show. The important thing is that any deviations from the “standard” format be announced well in advance.
>3) A set of D7 guidelines to assist a CD with this decision and a mechanism to handle it would be a “good” thing.
>4) It should never be mandatory to fly the F sequence at a local contest. (This is strongly implied in the FAI rulebook)
> 
>Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.
> 
>Jon Carter
>
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