[NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System

Wed Oct 28 11:54:23 AKDT 2015

Good conversation!  I agree with John that there is a consistency issue to solve.  The problem I’ve observed is around legacy laptops not always reliability running Master Scoring.  Perhaps Scott can consult with us and we can see what can be done on a local level before contest season begins?  Maybe we need a tech session at WRAM where CDs or score keepers can bring in their laptops for a tune-up (or assessment if the equipment is not up to the job)?

No doubt there are many advantages to Peter Vogel’s system if it can be digested by those who choose to use it, but it remains to be seen if it changes judging behavior or outcomes.  Perhaps not as much as D7 would like us to believe?  I have not used it yet myself, but I go with Ed on the point about noting deductions as I see them.  The tech problem I see in D1 would not necessarily be solved if we just have new problems that come with the new gear.  Sometimes less is more, especially when the main activity is competitively flying model aircraft, can be complex enough at (the wrong) times!

To Joe’s point about better judging, D1 made a huge step forward this year in having a well attended Judging Clinic.  We should continue this so that all can improve our skills and assist the newcomers and growing Sportsman class maintain interest and gain competency.  Will be critical as they challenge Intermediate. We might even think of holding a second one in NJ or PA if one of the clubs that is not hosting a contest is interested in education as a more managable alternative.  (Mike, interested?)  Will help D1 get more people out to contests, or at least come back again in 2016, if they feel in the know.

To Mike’s question, the investment is one of time rather than money (D1 has none I think), and adding even one new contest to the calendar is a major committment for a flying club.  We actually have enough contests so my interest would be improving the quality of each that we have and increasing attendance, rather than holding more of them.  There is never enough stick time, practice, practice, LOL!

We have a terrific DVP in Anthony who had done a great job for D1 in 2015.  We need to return the favor and all get a little more involved doing things in D1 as he has a new job and perhaps much less time to practice and contribute.  We all have great ideas, if we can put some of those to work on a proactive basis, D1 should continue to thrive in ’16!  As for raising $2,500 for the new system, perhaps we could just start with tending to the local laptops first so next season runs a little smoother for the CD’s and their non-combatant scoring volunteers (or wives).  Will make the contests more engaging for the newcomers too if results are not so painful to eek out or wait on.  That and judging clinic(s) will help us keep up the momentum.  Other ideas?

> On Oct 28, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> Score distribution of 4 contests using the E-Scribe and 4 using paper.  Slightly higher scores overall with E-Scribe, but no difference below 6...I have to admit, that isn't quite what I expected!
> 
> (screen capture below in case it gets clipped)
> <image.png>
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Michael DiGennaro via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> Folks, 
> 
>  I may be a newbie to Pattern but I have vast experience in complex instant scoring systems. In this case there is only a "cool factor" and in my opinion no measurable affect on the outcome or attendance of a contest. 
> 
>  If D1 is to invest hard cash into something perhaps some more actual events/contests would be nice. Would our D1 folks benefit more from slick scoring or more flying? 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:02 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> 
> Actually, there needs to be more focus on getting people to the contests. 
> 
> 
> Joe Lachowski
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Ed Alt wrote:
> 
> Yep!
> 
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 10:52 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> 
>> I never look at scores. It only makes me angry. Only interested in results relative to my fellow competitors. LOL. Focusing on having better qualified and a bigger pool of judges than an automated scoring program is more important. I prefer writing on paper no matter what and will never use an automated system when I judge.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joe Lachowski
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:
>> 
>> I think, more than anything, Peter's system provides for better judging.  Points are deducted as defects are seen; no more impression judging.  If no defects are seen, it's a 10.  If numerous defects are flown, a 1 or 0 is easily possible.  Where as how many actually write a 1?   It also allows for the judge to never have take their eyes off the airplane to record a score.   
>> 
>> The logistics of moving scores and eliminating transcription errors is just gravy. 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:33 AM, John Ford via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>> I think that we need to remember what the core problem is…
>> The core problem isn't the choice of scoring system, hi-tech, lo-tech, or anything else. 
>> 
>> The NSRCA's mission is to provide Contests and Contest Experiences to its members. That means that the local contest is king of everything we do and has the greatest influence on how our sport evolves and lives. (Sorry, but the NATS are a statistically trivial part of all NSRCA activity) 
>> From the perspective of a new Sportsman, THE SINGLE BIGGEST DEAL in his/her mind is seeing their score after the first round of their first contest…that's it. 
>> 
>> In the Districts (I've seen several, not only D1), we have volunteers/CD's who run the current "manual" software very very well, without a hitch, and posting rounds a few minutes after the last pilot lands. Within the same districts, there are contests where scores are simply not available at all until Sunday afternoon. We even see contests where an "on-the-spot" excel spreadsheet gets created on Saturday morning because of an unresolvable glitch in the software. 
>> 
>> So we have a consistency issue to solve, not necessarily a major technology obstacle to overcome. 
>> 
>> Probably relatively easy to solve the former, and much more demanding on someone's time to solve the latter via Peter's system.
>> 
>> Just my opinion…
>> 
>> John Ford
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> It’s a system Matt, and someone needs to set-up WiFi at each contest so that the scores are passed to the computer as the judges record them.  Would require a non-trivial level of knowledge, training and commitment to implement and maintain in any District; that said, not insurmountable if that’s what any District wants to do and has volunteers who will see it through. What is perhaps as interesting is that how our members wish to score rounds at a contest?  There is a certain simplicity in the way we do it now, with pencil and paper, that is perhaps not something that all would like to discard for recording downgrades.  We could say that if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it; but to be honest that is not entirely the case, that what we do now is not broke; but Vogel’s solution is only one possible way to address what sometimes does not work well at our D1 contests. What do others think?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 28, 2015, at 8:06 AM, rcmaster199 at aol.com <mailto:rcmaster199 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I want to qualify my comments. I only have a passing interest in Peter's scoring system, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. Bottom line, "I think" that it scores each maneuver directly into a database and produces immediate results after each pilot has flown. That's really cool! If I understand it right.
>>>>  
>>>> I think that for D1 it's likely a mater of logistics. How many contests are there and what is the real workload the system likely to alleviate? Having the instant response is a nice to have but is it absolutely necessary? Are the required people who have been doing the job no longer available? Or is it one big hassle every Saturday morning and that's the real benefit? But someone still needs to manage something with this software, don't they?
>>>>  
>>>> Money: Chances are that you the pilots will need to put up the money. You may ask the NSRCA board for assistance and might get 200$. And what about new pilots coming into pattern (in D1)? When do they participate with their wallets?
>>>>  
>>>> Is the app enough technology to help a contest or do you have to have the full blown system?
>>>>  
>>>> Matt
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> To: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com <mailto:anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>>; CT, DE, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>> Sent: Wed, Oct 28, 2015 6:27 am
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
>>>> 
>>>> Aside from the obvious question of where would the $2,500 investment come from, I wish I could say that contest scoring has NOT been an issue in D1, and that we really don’t need a some solution.  With all due respect to our clubs, CDs, their assistants and volunteers who have been doing their very best with what they have to work with; we have had challenges in recent contests with legacy laptop computers and that remains an issue, albeit a local one for contests in 2016.  Now I would not go so far as to say that Vogel's solution is the right fit for D1; but it’s availability does beg the question if we can do better as a District; and raise the question if there is an alternative to continuing with the various local laptops? Perhaps D1 acquiring/updating a laptop or two to support contests at the District level as an intermediate step?  If we cannot supply/support a D1 laptop or two, and manage the logistics of who has it, where & when, then we are not likely to pull off a full conversion to Vogel’s system. 
>>>> 
>>>> My observation is that we have enough capable volunteers at each contest to enter scores, many of whom are now familiar with Master Scoring software; but we have had an uneven experience with the the laptops themselves in recent years.  What do others think and is this an issue we want to address as D1 (or just let it stay local knowing that contests may not go as smoothly as they could if we had some robust D1 hardware backing our local efforts)?  Perhaps if we can manage the logistics of shepherding two D1 scoring computers around in 2016, we might upgrade to Vogel’s system in the future once additional members have been exposed to it enough to decide if they want to use it at their local contests (most D1 members do not travel to the Nats)?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 27, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Please read the below message from Peter Vogel about the electronic scoring system he brought to the Canandaigua contest this year. Should D1 invest in one of these systems? Anyone willing to manage this?
>>>> 
>>>> Anthony
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> After 2 very successful trouble-free runs at the SAM contest 2 weeks ago and the Cajun NATS last week.  Last Monday I finally decided it was time to submit the app formally to the app store rather than relying on development loads to individual iPod touches or TestFlight 30-day conk beta loads for my friends in Australia who have been experimenting with the app.  As more districts reach out to me with orders for fully configured setups I wanted to make sure I had a path to get software updates out to devices in a timely manner.  
>>>> 
>>>> So I'm pleased to announce that as of today the PatternScoring app for iOS is live on the App Store as a free app!
>>>> 
>>>> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8 <https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8>
>>>> 
>>>> If you've never used the scribe app before, feel free to download and, with a good internet connection, use the "demo contest" mode to play with it.  Naturally the intent is to use it with a game controller, but the buttons on the screen with the picture of the game controller do work to give you a flavor for how things work.
>>>> 
>>>> If you are using it on iOS 8, you will notice that the voice is a little bit fast.  That's because iOS 9 changed the pace of the voice synthesizer and I submitted the version to work best with the latest iOS (9).  
>>>> 
>>>> I've also completed a complete Bill of Materials for the contest scoring system, including two handy rolling cases with custom-cut foam for everything needed (except the laptop) to run a contest, I sell these at my cost of $2500, fully configured to run a contest out of the box (i.e.: I'm not trying to make money on this).  D8 just bought one, and D7 has bought two. If any other districts have an interest in getting one or more sets, please contact me directly and we can make appropriate arrangements.  Please make sure you have one or more people in the district who are willing and able to take on the running of scoring at a contest using the system.  I'm making continuous refinements to the system to make it easier for anyone to run scoring, but it does require a certain level of comfort and familiarity with technology in general.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Peter+
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>>>> 
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> -- 
> Mike DiGennaro (Mike D.)
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