[NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System

Mon Nov 2 12:42:23 AKST 2015

thanks Joe. That could be very helpful.
Anthony

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 18:07:24 -0400
From: jlachow at optonline.net
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
To: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com
CC: nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org

The district can have the small printer I have. Very compact it works and I got it for free.

Joe Lachowski   On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 03:23 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:  Thank you again Dana for making the extra effort! Anyone else to join the D1 Scoring Team?
Scott, what is the minimal system that would run Master Score? Also, how old of a system will run Master Score effectively. Just trying to get a sense if we could collect some of people unused not so current laptops for scoring purposes as opposed to buying equipment.
Another issue is output. Trying to keep a printer running outdoors can be quite a challenge but is key to generating scores. I wound up writing them on poster board but we need to have scores available after each round. Anyone have ideas on how we can streamline this equipment need?
Anthony

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
From: danamaenia at me.com
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:14:15 -0400
CC: anthonyr105 at hotmail.com
To: davel322 at comcast.net; nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org

Agree with Dave’s observations about manpower, our recent contests and the problems to solve except for the funding part.  Our contests have been friendly & small; what proceeds there are need to go to the clubs that have closed their airfields for the day or weekend so we can have our contests.  Perhaps if we had large turnouts like they have in D7, fund raising might be feasible but that is just not realistic for D1.  We are having fun at our small turnout contests so I don’t see that as the most rational problem to try to solve, given the recent history of D1 in the 5 years that I have been competing. 
Agree also with Anthony on solutions.  This year is a off year for both Sequence Committee and Contest Board, so I can volunteer for scoring team work in D1 if others will also support Anthony's idea.  We would need Scott Smith’s help to make this completely successful, IMO.  If Scott would contact me off thread, I can share some observations and ask for some specifics on how to solve.  We would not need a lot of volunteers to make this idea work for D1, but one or two more who either have reliable laptops running MS smoothly, know how to correctly install and operate MS, or would be willing to work during the off-season so we are ready to go with updated, primary and back-up computers (and printers) known to operate for our 2016 contests.  We can think through staffing for scoring ideas once the laptop solution is in sight. Will be much easier than a conversion to the Vogel system for 2016 IMO.  Dana

On Oct 28, 2015, at 11:49 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:D1 has never done much in the way of raising funds for the District. IF we start raising funds for the District….what is the best way to spend it? Some (somewhat) random thoughts - Manpower is much more of a problem at contests now than in the past.  More contests are being run by fewer people, and at smaller contests, running a single flightline is the only option.  If the contest were more efficient to run….that would help….the Vogel system is efficient (when working properly with a trained person to set it up and watch over it). Many of the problems I see at contests are due to inadequate planning / prep.  This is not a knock on the CDs or organizers….it is a reflection of ONE guy putting together the event and not having time to do a dry run, or operation check on all the equipment prior to the contest….so problems end up being found and addressed on the day of the contest.  A Vogel system will not help much here….and may be more difficult since it requires a greater level of knowledge/skill to get it right. I think the Vogel scoring system may (in time) increase the range of scores used, and reduce impression judging….the effect may not be as pronounced as predicted.  Is $2500 best spent on a Vogel system or on encouraging people to attend judging seminars, clinics, sponsoring pattern primers, etc?  Or on a “contest” laptop to be passed along contest to contest….and setup by a savvy scorekeeper at the beginning of each season? If we want $$$ for D1 (for whatever use)…we can “skim” a little from each contest entry fee.  We can run 50/50 raffles at every event.  We can sell D1 hats, Tshirts, etc.  And we can do a lot of these things at WRAM show and look for opportunities to do so at other events. Regards,
Dave From: NSRCA-dist1 [mailto:nsrca-dist1-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 4:50 PM
To: district one <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System Thanks Dana. You beat me to the punch on a lot of this. My takeaway is that we still have some CDs struggling with scoring and Master Score setup resulting in the last minute spreadsheet and subsequent hair pulling.  The idea of a few designated D1 laptops/printers and individuals to assist in scoring set up would be the first step before adding complexity. Now who would volunteer to part of a scoring team to manage this? Anthony Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 15:52:27 -0400
To: vze23c3q at gmail.com; nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring System
From: nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.orgGood conversation!  I agree with John that there is a consistency issue to solve.  The problem I’ve observed is around legacy laptops not always reliability running Master Scoring.  Perhaps Scott can consult with us and we can see what can be done on a local level before contest season begins?  Maybe we need a tech session at WRAM where CDs or score keepers can bring in their laptops for a tune-up (or assessment if the equipment is not up to the job)? No doubt there are many advantages to Peter Vogel’s system if it can be digested by those who choose to use it, but it remains to be seen if it changes judging behavior or outcomes.  Perhaps not as much as D7 would like us to believe?  I have not used it yet myself, but I go with Ed on the point about noting deductions as I see them.  The tech problem I see in D1 would not necessarily be solved if we just have new problems that come with the new gear.  Sometimes less is more, especially when the main activity is competitively flying model aircraft, can be complex enough at (the wrong) times! To Joe’s point about better judging, D1 made a huge step forward this year in having a well attended Judging Clinic.  We should continue this so that all can improve our skills and assist the newcomers and growing Sportsman class maintain interest and gain competency.  Will be critical as they challenge Intermediate. We might even think of holding a second one in NJ or PA if one of the clubs that is not hosting a contest is interested in education as a more managable alternative.  (Mike, interested?)  Will help D1 get more people out to contests, or at least come back again in 2016, if they feel in the know. To Mike’s question, the investment is one of time rather than money (D1 has none I think), and adding even one new contest to the calendar is a major committment for a flying club.  We actually have enough contests so my interest would be improving the quality of each that we have and increasing attendance, rather than holding more of them.  There is never enough stick time, practice, practice, LOL! We have a terrific DVP in Anthony who had done a great job for D1 in 2015.  We need to return the favor and all get a little more involved doing things in D1 as he has a new job and perhaps much less time to practice and contribute.  We all have great ideas, if we can put some of those to work on a proactive basis, D1 should continue to thrive in ’16!  As for raising $2,500 for the new system, perhaps we could just start with tending to the local laptops first so next season runs a little smoother for the CD’s and their non-combatant scoring volunteers (or wives).  Will make the contests more engaging for the newcomers too if results are not so painful to eek out or wait on.  That and judging clinic(s) will help us keep up the momentum.  Other ideas?  On Oct 28, 2015, at 2:24 PM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote: Score distribution of 4 contests using the E-Scribe and 4 using paper.  Slightly higher scores overall with E-Scribe, but no difference below 6...I have to admit, that isn't quite what I expected! (screen capture below in case it gets clipped)<image.png>   On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Michael DiGennaro via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:Folks, 

 I may be a newbie to Pattern but I have vast experience in complex instant scoring systems. In this case there is only a "cool factor" and in my opinion no measurable affect on the outcome or attendance of a contest. 

 If D1 is to invest hard cash into something perhaps some more actual events/contests would be nice. Would our D1 folks benefit more from slick scoring or more flying?  On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 11:02 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Actually, there needs to be more focus on getting people to the contests. 

Joe Lachowski

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Ed Alt wrote:Yep!
On Oct 28, 2015, at 10:52 AM, JOE LACHOWSKI via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:I never look at scores. It only makes me angry. Only interested in results relative to my fellow competitors. LOL. Focusing on having better qualified and a bigger pool of judges than an automated scoring program is more important. I prefer writing on paper no matter what and will never use an automated system when I judge.

Joe Lachowski

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Scott Smith via NSRCA-dist1 wrote:I think, more than anything, Peter's system provides for better judging.  Points are deducted as defects are seen; no more impression judging.  If no defects are seen, it's a 10.  If numerous defects are flown, a 1 or 0 is easily possible.  Where as how many actually write a 1?   It also allows for the judge to never have take their eyes off the airplane to record a score.    The logistics of moving scores and eliminating transcription errors is just gravy.  On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 9:33 AM, John Ford via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:I think that we need to remember what the core problem is…The core problem isn't the choice of scoring system, hi-tech, lo-tech, or anything else.  The NSRCA's mission is to provide Contests and Contest Experiences to its members. That means that the local contest is king of everything we do and has the greatest influence on how our sport evolves and lives. (Sorry, but the NATS are a statistically trivial part of all NSRCA activity) From the perspective of a new Sportsman, THE SINGLE BIGGEST DEAL in his/her mind is seeing their score after the first round of their first contest…that's it.  In the Districts (I've seen several, not only D1), we have volunteers/CD's who run the current "manual" software very very well, without a hitch, and posting rounds a few minutes after the last pilot lands. Within the same districts, there are contests where scores are simply not available at all until Sunday afternoon. We even see contests where an "on-the-spot" excel spreadsheet gets created on Saturday morning because of an unresolvable glitch in the software.  So we have a consistency issue to solve, not necessarily a major technology obstacle to overcome.  Probably relatively easy to solve the former, and much more demanding on someone's time to solve the latter via Peter's system. Just my opinion… John Ford    On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote: It’s a system Matt, and someone needs to set-up WiFi at each contest so that the scores are passed to the computer as the judges record them.  Would require a non-trivial level of knowledge, training and commitment to implement and maintain in any District; that said, not insurmountable if that’s what any District wants to do and has volunteers who will see it through. What is perhaps as interesting is that how our members wish to score rounds at a contest?  There is a certain simplicity in the way we do it now, with pencil and paper, that is perhaps not something that all would like to discard for recording downgrades.  We could say that if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it; but to be honest that is not entirely the case, that what we do now is not broke; but Vogel’s solution is only one possible way to address what sometimes does not work well at our D1 contests. What do others think?  On Oct 28, 2015, at 8:06 AM, rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote: I want to qualify my comments. I only have a passing interest in Peter's scoring system, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. Bottom line, "I think" that it scores each maneuver directly into a database and produces immediate results after each pilot has flown. That's really cool! If I understand it right. I think that for D1 it's likely a mater of logistics. How many contests are there and what is the real workload the system likely to alleviate? Having the instant response is a nice to have but is it absolutely necessary? Are the required people who have been doing the job no longer available? Or is it one big hassle every Saturday morning and that's the real benefit? But someone still needs to manage something with this software, don't they? Money: Chances are that you the pilots will need to put up the money. You may ask the NSRCA board for assistance and might get 200$. And what about new pilots coming into pattern (in D1)? When do they participate with their wallets? Is the app enough technology to help a contest or do you have to have the full blown system? Matt    -----Original Message-----
From: Dana Beaton via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>; CT, DE, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VT <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, Oct 28, 2015 6:27 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-dist1] PatternScoring SystemAside from the obvious question of where would the $2,500 investment come from, I wish I could say that contest scoring has NOT been an issue in D1, and that we really don’t need a some solution.  With all due respect to our clubs, CDs, their assistants and volunteers who have been doing their very best with what they have to work with; we have had challenges in recent contests with legacy laptop computers and that remains an issue, albeit a local one for contests in 2016.  Now I would not go so far as to say that Vogel's solution is the right fit for D1; but it’s availability does beg the question if we can do better as a District; and raise the question if there is an alternative to continuing with the various local laptops? Perhaps D1 acquiring/updating a laptop or two to support contests at the District level as an intermediate step?  If we cannot supply/support a D1 laptop or two, and manage the logistics of who has it, where & when, then we are not likely to pull off a full conversion to Vogel’s system.  My observation is that we have enough capable volunteers at each contest to enter scores, many of whom are now familiar with Master Scoring software; but we have had an uneven experience with the the laptops themselves in recent years.  What do others think and is this an issue we want to address as D1 (or just let it stay local knowing that contests may not go as smoothly as they could if we had some robust D1 hardware backing our local efforts)?  Perhaps if we can manage the logistics of shepherding two D1 scoring computers around in 2016, we might upgrade to Vogel’s system in the future once additional members have been exposed to it enough to decide if they want to use it at their local contests (most D1 members do not travel to the Nats)?  On Oct 27, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-dist1 <nsrca-dist1 at lists.nsrca.org> wrote: Please read the below message from Peter Vogel about the electronic scoring system he brought to the Canandaigua contest this year. Should D1 invest in one of these systems? Anyone willing to manage this? Anthony   After 2 very successful trouble-free runs at the SAM contest 2 weeks ago and the Cajun NATS last week.  Last Monday I finally decided it was time to submit the app formally to the app store rather than relying on development loads to individual iPod touches or TestFlight 30-day conk beta loads for my friends in Australia who have been experimenting with the app.  As more districts reach out to me with orders for fully configured setups I wanted to make sure I had a path to get software updates out to devices in a timely manner.    So I'm pleased to announce that as of today the PatternScoring app for iOS is live on the App Store as a free app! https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/patternscoring/id1018433564?mt=8 If you've never used the scribe app before, feel free to download and, with a good internet connection, use the "demo contest" mode to play with it.  Naturally the intent is to use it with a game controller, but the buttons on the screen with the picture of the game controller do work to give you a flavor for how things work. If you are using it on iOS 8, you will notice that the voice is a little bit fast.  That's because iOS 9 changed the pace of the voice synthesizer and I submitted the version to work best with the latest iOS (9).   I've also completed a complete Bill of Materials for the contest scoring system, including two handy rolling cases with custom-cut foam for everything needed (except the laptop) to run a contest, I sell these at my cost of $2500, fully configured to run a contest out of the box (i.e.: I'm not trying to make money on this).  D8 just bought one, and D7 has bought two. If any other districts have an interest in getting one or more sets, please contact me directly and we can make appropriate arrangements.  Please make sure you have one or more people in the district who are willing and able to take on the running of scoring at a contest using the system.  I'm making continuous refinements to the system to make it easier for anyone to run scoring, but it does require a certain level of comfort and familiarity with technology in general. Thanks!Peter+ -- Director, Fixed Wing Flight TrainingSanta Clara County Model Aircraft SkyparkAssociate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District XTreasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)_______________________________________________
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