[NSRCA-discussion] F21 - 3 questions

Tue Mar 17 06:17:41 AKDT 2020

Hello all,
Jim you are correct.  It will need a little more discussion.  I got a
question in regard Q1.  We discussed few weeks back.  This is in regard the
constant velocity FAI requirement (20% weight) which FAI rulebook has it as
the second most important judging criteria after geometry that is (60%
weight).  Here is from the FAI rulebook:

*5B.9. SMOOTHNESS AND GRACEFULNESS OF THE MANOEUVREConcerns the harmonic
appearance of an entire manoeuvre; i.e. maintaining a constant flight speed
throughout the various manoeuvre components, like in climbing and
descending sections contributes significantly to smoothness and
gracefulness. Radii performed very tight or very loose, though being of
equal size within one manoeuvre may be subject for downgrading Smoothness
and Gracefulness.*

In regard Q1.  When we discussed few weeks ago it was mention constant
velocity is not a judging criteria but is clearly mention in the FAI
rulebook.  I didn't discuss further.  However, in this particular maneuver
it is required that the entry and exit radii have to be equal and the roll
rate has to be the same.  If that is the case, I believe that flight
velocity has to be constant in order to get both radii and roll rates equal
in both 1/4 loops.  Therefore, this particular maneuver get us back to that
original discussion in regard constant flying speed that is a FAI-F3a
requirement.

I wonder if CPLR new design with that braking system in the canalizer is
just to be able to do this better.  As usual, pattern is always pushing the
limits.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 9:39 PM james woodward via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> Derek K.,
>
> Thanks so much for your response.  Although I recognize of course that in
> FAI, the Description takes priority over the Picture, They often match
> enough that it makes sense to use the picture as a guide.  They seem to
> align the "picture" with the description intent in roll combinations, and
> rolling circles, most of the time.
>
> Q 1:  Agree - application of the continuous roll and part roll language.
> Thus - the Entry & Exit "1/4 Integrated Rolls" need to match each other,
> but do not need to match the Upline 1 roll, or Downline Opposite 1/2
> Rolls.  The Upline 1 Roll and Downline 1/2 rolls need to match each other.
>   Entry & Exit Radii also need to match.
>
> Q2:  Agree - The maneuver was drawn to depict 1/4 Roll and same direction
> Snap Roll, then Opposite direction Snap Roll & same direction 1/4 Roll.
> (There may be more discussion on this, but I think the drawing supports the
> intent).
>
> Q3:  Agree - The maneuver is drawn to depict "outside" Rolls.  If you
> perform Outside rolls, then the "Pull-Push radii" language also aligns in
> the Description.  (similar to how they draw a rolling circle).
>
> Thanks and looking forward to any discussion on the matter.  Better to
> iron this stuff out early in the season, than later.
> Jim W.
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:10 PM Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>>
>>
>>
>> The answers to your questions are in the rules… as with all answers – the
>> written description takes precedence over the aresti ALL the time.
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Page 30 – 5B.8.5 – d) – “In all manoeuvres which have more than
>>    one continuous roll, the continuous rolls must have the same roll-rate. In
>>    all manoeuvres which have more than one part-roll, the part-rolls must have
>>    the same roll rate. Lines between consecutive part-rolls must be short and
>>    of equal length. Between consecutive continuous rolls or part-rolls in
>>    opposite direction there must be no line. Where there are continuous rolls
>>    and part-rolls within one manoeuvre, the roll-rate for the part- rolls does
>>    not necessarily have to be the same as the roll-rate for the continuous
>>    rolls.”.  So to answer your question – all part rolls need to have the same
>>    roll rate and they can be different to the roll rate of continuous rolls.
>>    2. If the roll direction is not specified then the rolls must go in
>>    the same direction – see Page 30 – 5B.8.5 – last paragraph.  So if you roll
>>    left on the ¼ roll then the snap must be left and then immediately followed
>>    by a snap to the right and then a ¼ roll to finish.
>>    3. The answer is Yes – as long as you push/pull/push/pull correctly
>>    through all the corners then you will be ok.  Start upright and end upright.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
>> behalf of NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Reply-To: *james woodward <jimwoodward89 at gmail.com>, NSRCA List <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Date: *Monday, March 16, 2020 at 11:37 AM
>> *To: *NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject: *[NSRCA-discussion] F21 - 3 questions
>>
>>
>>
>> Gents - in order to help pas the time due to CV - I have 3 legit
>> questions on F21:
>>
>>
>>
>> Question 1:  Center Humpty with 1/4 rolls integrated on the entry &
>> Exit.  Does the "Roll-Rate" of the entry/exit Integrated 1/4 Roll(s) need
>> to match the Roll-rate of the 1-Roll up, and Opposite 1/2 Rolls down?  Or,
>> are the integrated 1/4 rolls treated separate from the rolls-on-lines, but
>> need to match each other (entry/exit)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Question 2:  45 Downline.  Does this maneuver need to be flown as
>> depicted in the Aresti, IE, does the First 1/4 Roll and First Snap, with
>> 2nd Snap & 2nd 1/4 roll the same direction?  Or, are the 1/4 rolls
>> separated from the snaps, and the only thing that matters is the Snaps are
>> "opposite", and the Exit is Inverted?
>>
>>
>>
>> Question 3:  Horizontal Square:  Does the 1/4 Entry, subsequent 3 1/2
>> Rolls, and final 1/4 Roll, need to be flown as depicted in the Aresti?  The
>> Aresti depicts these as "outside" rolls (IE, there is a Left horizontal
>> square, and a Right horizontal square, depending on direction of flight.
>> Or, does only the "pull or push corners" matter, and the Exit to Upright?
>>
>>
>>
>> No gotcha's here - just wondering as I have seem various iterations.  I
>> read the .ppt on NSRCA, and didn't see these elements specifically pointed
>> to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim W.
>>
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