[NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?
tjpritchett at aol.com
tjpritchett at aol.com
Thu Jul 11 09:51:18 AKDT 2019
The NSRCA Sequence Guidelines Committee convenes in alternating years with the Sequence Development Committee (Guidelines produces the 'rules', and Development assembles the sequences from the rules) With the stellar work done by Monte's last Guidelines committee, putting together a tool that basically builds maneuvers and K-factors for us, the load on them ought to be pretty light. They'd also be the right group to handle the start/stop definitions. We'll add this to the list of charges for the next seating of the Guidelines committee (next year).
I thought about the 4pt. (or slow roll) roll example, but actually in the form of a centered closed geometry with rolls in the first leg...same thing though. Although a 4pt. roll starts way off center, it's another extreme example of why center maneuvers can't be considered to start on center. There has to be a straight line, it's location and length are determined retroactively, from where the rolling begins - at the departure from the line by a roll initiation. So the same definition works; the maneuver begins with the departure from the horizontal entry line, wherever that occurs. Good example!
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Galligan via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: chuenkan <chuenkan at comcast.net>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?
I think Don Ramsey's assessment of the beginning and ending of a maneuver is spot on. A discernable straight line before and after the maneuver.The straight line is part of the prior maneuver and the beginning of the next. It seems the thinking is there is a separate judged line before and after each maneuver when they actually flow together.Take for instance in Masters the two slow rolls opposite can get stretched out especially if there is a strong downwind. There can be a very short line before the pull to the stall turn.Is this a downgrade because it’s a short line? I don’t think so... 50 yards long.. no as that’s 150 feet and the maneuver becomes compacted and the rolls to fast.... unless your flying out 200 meters then you start getting downgraded for distance. From: Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 11:43 AMTo: Derek Koopowitz ; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? Derek, the answer to your hypothetical question depends, I think, on where the maneuver really starts. Per Tim's analysis, if the maneuver begins with a pull-up at a corner, then I'd say no, given that the requisite straight & level line is done prior to the actual start of the maneuver. OTOH, if the maneuver starts at the center of the box, then, yes it should be downgraded. If the maneuver is, say, a Triangle Rolling Loop, then, yes, because there needs to be a line before the centered pull-up to 45 degrees.At this point, I am in violent agreement with Tim's analysis -- a committee of the NSRCA needs to meet and define the real, final starting point for each maneuver, and show that in the aresti diagrams. How does IMAC handle it? How do the 1:1 scale judges and pilots handle it? Can we learn anything from them? I have a good friend in our local club who competes in a Pitts, I will ask him.Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
Knoxville, TN 37931 (865) 604-0541c
On July 11, 2019 at 11:06 AM Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
The unfortunate thing is that we’ll always have certain maneuvers where lines overlap and with that will come a sort of double judging. Hypothetical question - should the judge downgrade the maneuver if the wings were not level and the plane is climbing/descending on the line into the maneuver and it’s before center but within the square frame?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:09 AM, davel322 < davel322 at comcast.net> wrote:
In the case of a square loop at center flown from right to left..... Is the suggestion that the entirety of the maneuver includes a line of 50 yards to the right of the downline, and 50 yards left of the up line? So the bottom line of the maneuver is in effect being flown and judged twice? Seems to me it would be more practical to judge 50 yards prior to the first radius, in this case, the pull to vertical. Judging would cease when the plane passes 50 yards past the entry radius. Regards, Dave Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note8. Apologies in advance for any typos undoubtedly introduced by auto correct and / or talk to text. -------- Original message -------- From: Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Date: 7/11/19 09:58 (GMT-05:00) To: Don Ramsey < donramsey at gmail.com>, NSRCA List < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? I agree with you in principle, Don… but in order for the maneuver to look like a square, and be proportional, then the straight line in (unknown line length) should begin before the horizontal line at the bottom. Stu’s original question was what happens if the half Cuban is flown large and only finishes at center or after center, does one start judging at the pull up or is there a downgrade right away. I’ve always visualized what the maneuver should look like once the maneuver starts and based on the first pull that gives me a basis for where it should have begun in order for me to give max points for symmetry and being proportional. My point about the 50+ yards is that the + is the unknown line length (not the 50 yards as the straight line in length). From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Reply-To: Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>, NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:11 AM
To: NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? My question would be, doesn’t the last horizontal line of the square form part of the square. FAI: All manoeuvres must be entered and exited with straight and level upright or inverted flight of recognisable length. AMA: Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be executed…. All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line. I can’t find any reference to the length of this line except in the case of unscored turnarounds where it must be at least 15 meters. I’ve always judged these type maneuvers as if they start at center with a recognizable line before center. In the square, the final leg connects and finishes the maneuver. So in this case, the bottom of the square is formed by a half line that starts at center and finished by the line on the last leg. This is an interesting question as I’ve never considered Derek’s interpretation. It just never occurred to me and I don’t even try to fly it like that. I have always thought of say the Masters double immelmann, triangle, or any square as starting at center. The question then becomes where is the exit. The last line is just a retrace of a prior line and the maneuver finishes with a straight line after the point where the first radii of the maneuver was started. On the double immelmann I try to roll wings level at the point where I started the first half loop. All lines contribute to the shape of the maneuver. Of course, there are many maneuvers that do start before center. Don From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:03 AM
To: Anthony Romano; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? Since the last maneuver is a centered square, the first line of the square is the bottom and thus starts before center. As Anthony mentions all maneuvers start and end with a straight line so one must assume that a straight horizontal line of reasonable length must be visible before that straight line is flown before center. I would think that the judge would make a determination about the start line once the first vertical portion is started and then they could determine if the straight line in was proportional to the maneuver. So, if the first vertical line starts at 50 yards past center then there should have been at least 50+ yards of straight horizontal flight prior to center in order for the maneuver to look like a square and be proportional. Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Without digging through the rule book for chapter and verse all maneuvers begin and end with a straight line. So the beginning would be a straight line of significant length prior to be obviously clear that it is a straight line. If the pilot locks the plane in wings level dead horizontal flight it could be a few seconds or what ever that translates to in distance that could be enough such as after the trombone and before the golf ball in masters. For a long drive across the box again I look for a defined straight line prior to beginning the maneuver. Certainly for those examples that begin past center than center is appropriate point. For the last 2 maneuvers in P one would have to fly a very large half Cuban to encroach on center. This would be a poor presentation if the maneuver are not distinct. Similar discussions could be had for the length of a hesitation in a roll or height of a stall turn. These should be explicitly long enough to be clear of what is intended. The pilots job is to convince the judges that the maneuvers have been flown correctly. If there is doubt in the judges mind then they should downgrade because the pilot has not completed this task. Anthony From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 10:45 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start? This question was brought up at a local contest without a sure answer.
This was specifically referring to the last 2 maneuvers in FAI P-19 but
might apply to other situations as well. The last 2 maneuvers are a
half Cuban with 2 of 4 on the 45 followed by a square with half rolls.
So when does the square start? Is it at center? or at the first pull
up? It clearly has to finish after center after a straight segment
following the half roll. If the the half Cuban is flown large so that
it finished after or at center box does that cause a downgrade on the
square or do you start judging at the first pull up (no downgrade)?
You could potentially have a similar question in Masters with the start
of the triangle after the half square on corner turnaround.
Thanks,
Stuart Chale
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