<div style="color:black;font: 10pt Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">The NSRCA Sequence Guidelines Committee convenes in alternating years with the Sequence Development Committee (Guidelines produces the 'rules', and Development assembles the sequences from the rules) With the stellar work done by Monte's last Guidelines committee, putting together a tool that basically builds maneuvers and K-factors for us, the load on them ought to be pretty light. They'd also be the right group to handle the start/stop definitions. <span style="font-size: 10pt;">We'll add this to the list of charges for the next seating of the Guidelines committee (next year).</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I thought about the 4pt. (or slow roll) roll example, but actually in the form of a centered closed geometry with rolls in the first leg...same thing though. Although a 4pt. roll starts way off center, it's another extreme example of why center maneuvers can't be considered to start on center. There has to be a straight line, it's location and length are determined retroactively, from where the rolling begins - at the departure from the line by a roll initiation. So the same definition works; the maneuver begins with the departure from the horizontal entry line, wherever that occurs. </div>
<div>Good example! <br>
<div><br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Wayne Galligan via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
To: chuenkan <chuenkan@comcast.net>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2019 12:57 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?<br>
<br>
<div id="yiv2051484980">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;">
<div>I think Don Ramsey's assessment of the beginning and ending of a maneuver
is spot on. A discernable straight line before and after the
maneuver.</div>
<div>The straight line is part of the prior maneuver and the beginning of the
next. </div>
<div>It seems the thinking is there is a separate judged line before and after
each maneuver when they actually flow together.</div>
<div>Take for instance in Masters the two slow rolls opposite can get stretched
out especially if there is a strong downwind. </div>
<div>There can be a very short line before the pull to the stall turn.</div>
<div>Is this a downgrade because it’s a short line? </div>
<div>I don’t think so... 50 yards long.. no as that’s 150 feet and the
maneuver becomes compacted and the rolls to fast.... unless your flying out 200
meters then you start getting downgraded for distance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma;">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5;">
<div class="yiv2051484980yqt6253426044" id="yiv2051484980yqtfd96646">
<div><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 11, 2019 11:43 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">Derek Koopowitz</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver
start?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980yqt6253426044" id="yiv2051484980yqtfd83347">
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980yqt6253426044" id="yiv2051484980yqtfd42933">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;TEXT-DECORATION:none;">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;COLOR:#333333;">Derek,
the answer to your hypothetical question depends, I think, on where the maneuver
<strong>really</strong> starts. Per Tim's analysis, if the maneuver begins
with a pull-up at a corner, then I'd say no, given that the requisite straight
& level line is done prior to the actual start of the maneuver. OTOH,
if the maneuver starts at the center of the box, then, yes it should be
downgraded. If the maneuver is, say, a Triangle Rolling Loop, then, yes,
because there needs to be a line before the centered pull-up to 45 degrees.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;COLOR:#333333;">At
this point, I am in violent agreement with Tim's analysis -- a committee of the
NSRCA needs to meet and define the real, final starting point for each maneuver,
and show that in the aresti diagrams. How does IMAC handle it? How
do the 1:1 scale judges and pilots handle it? Can we learn anything from
them? I have a good friend in our local club who competes
<strong>in</strong> a Pitts, I will ask him.</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980io-ox-signature">
<div class="yiv2051484980default-style" style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;COLOR:#333333;"><span class="yiv2051484980signature-truncate"><span class="yiv2051484980signature-truncate"><span class="yiv2051484980signature-truncate"><span class="yiv2051484980signature-truncate"><span class="yiv2051484980signature-truncate"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial Black';"><strong><em>Phil Spelt, AMA
1294, Scientific Leader Member<br clear="none">SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC
Emeritus<br clear="none">Knoxville, TN 37931 (865)
604-0541c</em></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">On July 11, 2019 at 11:06 AM Derek Koopowitz via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> wrote: <br clear="none"><br clear="none">The
unfortunate thing is that we’ll always have certain maneuvers where lines
overlap and with that will come a sort of double judging.
<div> </div>
<div>Hypothetical question - should the judge downgrade the maneuver if the
wings were not level and the plane is climbing/descending on the line into the
maneuver and it’s before center but within the square frame? <br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:09 AM, davel322 <
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">davel322@comcast.net</a>> wrote: <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>In the case of a square loop at center flown from right to
left.....</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is the suggestion that the entirety of the maneuver includes a line of
50 yards to the right of the downline, and 50 yards left of the up
line? So the bottom line of the maneuver is in effect being flown and
judged twice?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Seems to me it would be more practical to judge 50 yards prior to the
first radius, in this case, the pull to vertical. Judging would cease
when the plane passes 50 yards past the entry radius.</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;">Regards, </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;">Dave</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;">Sent from my Sprint Samsung
Galaxy Note8.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;"> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:85%;COLOR:#575757;">Apologies in advance for any
typos undoubtedly introduced by auto correct and / or talk to text. </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:100%;COLOR:#000000;">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></div>
<div>Date: 7/11/19 09:58 (GMT-05:00)</div>
<div>To: Don Ramsey < <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>, NSRCA List <
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-WordSection1">
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;">I agree with you
in principle, Don… but in order for the maneuver to look like a square, and
be proportional, then the straight line in (unknown line length) should
begin before the horizontal line at the bottom. Stu’s original
question was what happens if the half Cuban is flown large and only finishes
at center or after center, does one start judging at the pull up or is there
a downgrade right away. </span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;">
</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;">I’ve always
visualized what the maneuver should look like once the maneuver starts and
based on the first pull that gives me a basis for where it should have begun
in order for me to give max points for symmetry and being
proportional. My point about the 50+ yards is that the + is the
unknown line length (not the 50 yards as the straight line in length).
</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;">
</span></div>
<div style="BORDER-LEFT-STYLE:none;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE:none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:3pt;BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:none;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;">
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="COLOR:black;">From:
</span></strong><span style="COLOR:black;">NSRCA-discussion
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>> on behalf of NSRCA
List <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Reply-To:
</strong>Don Ramsey <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>, NSRCA List
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Date:
</strong>Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 5:11 AM<br clear="none"><strong>To: </strong>NSRCA
List <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Subject:
</strong>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;">
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:#1f497d;">My
question would be, doesn’t the last horizontal line of the square form part
of the square. </span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:#1f497d;">FAI:
All </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">manoeuvres must be entered and
exited with straight and level upright or inverted flight of recognisable
length. </span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">AMA:
</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11.5pt;">Each time the model passes in front
of the judges, a maneuver must be executed…. All aerobatic maneuvers
are started and ended by a horizontal line. </span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11.5pt;">I can’t
find any reference to the length of this line except in the case of unscored
turnarounds where it must be at least 15 meters.</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">I’ve always
judged these type maneuvers as if they start at center with a recognizable
line before center. In the square, the final leg connects and finishes
the maneuver. So in this case, the bottom of the square is formed by a
half line that starts at center and finished by the line on the last
leg. </span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">This is an
interesting question as I’ve never considered Derek’s interpretation.
It just never occurred to me and I don’t even try to fly it like that.
I have always thought of say the Masters double immelmann, triangle, or any
square as starting at center. The question then becomes where is the
exit. The last line is just a retrace of a prior line and the maneuver
finishes with a straight line after the point where the first radii of the
maneuver was started. On the double immelmann I try to roll wings
level at the point where I started the first half loop. All lines
contribute to the shape of the maneuver.</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">Of course,
there are many maneuvers that do start before center.</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;"></span> </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;">Don</span></div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;"></span> </div>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-LEFT-STYLE:none;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE:none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-TOP:3pt;BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE:none;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;">
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma', sans-serif;">From:</span></strong><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma', sans-serif;"> NSRCA-discussion
[<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <strong>On Behalf
Of </strong>Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion<br clear="none"><strong>Sent:</strong>
Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:03 AM<br clear="none"><strong>To:</strong> Anthony Romano;
General pattern discussion<br clear="none"><strong>Subject:</strong> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"> </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal">Since the last maneuver is a centered
square, the first line of the square is the bottom and thus starts before
center. As Anthony mentions all maneuvers start and end with a straight line
so one must assume that a straight horizontal line of reasonable length must
be visible before that straight line is flown before center. I would
think that the judge would make a determination about the start line once
the first vertical portion is started and then they could determine if the
straight line in was proportional to the maneuver. </div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;">So, if the
first vertical line starts at 50 yards past center then there should have
been at least 50+ yards of straight horizontal flight prior to center in
order for the maneuver to look like a square and be proportional. </div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt;"><br clear="none">On Jul 10,
2019, at 7:28 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>> wrote:</div>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Without digging
through the rule book for chapter and verse all maneuvers begin and end
with a straight line. So the beginning would be a straight line of
significant length prior to be obviously clear that it is a straight line.
If the pilot locks the plane in wings level dead horizontal flight it
could be a few seconds or what ever that translates to in distance that
could be enough such as after the trombone and before the golf ball in
masters. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">For a long drive
across the box again I look for a defined straight line prior to beginning
the maneuver. Certainly for those examples that begin past center than
center is appropriate point. For the last 2 maneuvers in P one would have
to fly a very large half Cuban to encroach on center. This would be a poor
presentation if the maneuver are not distinct.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Similar
discussions could be had for the length of a hesitation in a roll or
height of a stall turn. These should be explicitly long enough to be clear
of what is intended.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">The pilots job is
to convince the judges that the maneuvers have been flown correctly. If
there is doubt in the judges mind then they should downgrade because the
pilot has not completed this task.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">Anthony</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;"></span> </div>
</div>
<div align="center" class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN:center;">
<hr align="center" size="0" width="100%">
</div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">From:</span></strong><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri', sans-serif;COLOR:black;">
NSRCA-discussion <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>>
on behalf of Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Sent:</strong>
Monday, July 8, 2019 10:45 PM<br clear="none"><strong>To:</strong> NSRCA Mailing
List<br clear="none"><strong>Subject:</strong> [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the
maneuver start?</span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv2051484980ox-261ca9d83e-MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;">This
question was brought up at a local contest without a sure answer.
<br clear="none">This was specifically referring to the last 2 maneuvers in FAI P-19
but <br clear="none">might apply to other situations as well. The last 2
maneuvers are a <br clear="none">half Cuban with 2 of 4 on the 45 followed by a square
with half rolls.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So when does the square start? Is it at
center? or at the first pull <br clear="none">up? It clearly has to finish
after center after a straight segment <br clear="none">following the half roll.
If the the half Cuban is flown large so that <br clear="none">it finished after or at
center box does that cause a downgrade on the <br clear="none">square or do you start
judging at the first pull up (no downgrade)?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">You could potentially
have a similar question in Masters with the start <br clear="none">of the triangle
after the half square on corner turnaround.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Thanks,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Stuart
Chale<br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br clear="none"><a rel="noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></div>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote>
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