[NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

Thu Jul 11 05:34:35 AKDT 2019

One thing to watch as well are full scale IAC aerobatic pilots from the cockpit on youtube.... Every time they begin / enter or finish / exit a maneuver, they violently jerk on the stick to initialize the start and stop point.
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From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 9:26 AM
To: Anthony Romano; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

I think the simplest approach is to take the maneuver in isolation and assume that ANY valid maneuver could be preceding it or following it.    That’s the approach that has to be taken when learning to fly unknown sequences from the catalog.  As a result, you have to assume that a turn around maneuver must end in time for an early start Center maneuver.   In my opinion, no turn around maneuver should ever cross the center line.  I realize that’s not in the rule book.  But I assure you it’s implied from the point of view that it’s a turn around maneuver.   Again, take the maneuver in isolation and assume you have to follow with a 4pt roll…
MARK ATWOOD
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On Jul 11, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

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I don't always assume a center beginning but I expect a significant line before the maneuver would require a deviation from horizontal. For the double I you mentioned center would be a fair spot for the straight line to begin since some distance very soon the plane will deviate to begin the half loop. With any Immelman the roll should be immediate upon reaching horizontal and the push for the second half loop should be immediately after the wings return to level. The end point should be would be where the wing returns to level when completing the second KE and this should coincide to the start of the initial pull for maximum points.

Anthony
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From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:11 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

My question would be, doesn’t the last horizontal line of the square form part of the square.
FAI: All manoeuvres must be entered and exited with straight and level upright or inverted flight of recognisable length.
AMA: Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be executed….  All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line.
I can’t find any reference to the length of this line except in the case of unscored turnarounds where it must be at least 15 meters.

I’ve always judged these type maneuvers as if they start at center with a recognizable line before center.  In the square, the final leg connects and finishes the maneuver.  So in this case, the bottom of the square is formed by a half line that starts at center and finished by the line on the last leg.

This is an interesting question as I’ve never considered Derek’s interpretation.  It just never occurred to me and I don’t even try to fly it like that.  I have always thought of say the Masters double immelmann, triangle, or any square as starting at center.  The question then becomes where is the exit.  The last line is just a retrace of a prior line and the maneuver finishes with a straight line after the point where the first radii of the maneuver was started.  On the double immelmann I try to roll wings level at the point where I started the first half loop.  All lines contribute to the shape of the maneuver.

Of course, there are many maneuvers that do start before center.

Don

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:03 AM
To: Anthony Romano; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

Since the last maneuver is a centered square, the first line of the square is the bottom and thus starts before center. As Anthony mentions all maneuvers start and end with a straight line so one must assume that a straight horizontal line of reasonable length must be visible before that straight line is flown before center.  I would think that the judge would make a determination about the start line once the first vertical portion is started and then they could determine if the straight line in was proportional to the maneuver.

So, if the first vertical line starts at 50 yards past center then there should have been at least 50+ yards of straight horizontal flight prior to center in order for the maneuver to look like a square and be proportional.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

Without digging through the rule book for chapter and verse all maneuvers begin and end with a straight line. So the beginning would be a straight line of significant length prior to be obviously clear that it is a straight line. If the pilot locks the plane in wings level dead horizontal flight it could be a few seconds or what ever that translates to in distance that could be enough such as after the trombone and before the golf ball in masters.
For a long drive across the box again I look for a defined straight line prior to beginning the maneuver. Certainly for those examples that begin past center than center is appropriate point. For the last 2 maneuvers in P one would have to fly a very large half Cuban to encroach on center. This would be a poor presentation if the maneuver are not distinct.
Similar discussions could be had for the length of a hesitation in a roll or height of a stall turn. These should be explicitly long enough to be clear of what is intended.
The pilots job is to convince the judges that the maneuvers have been flown correctly. If there is doubt in the judges mind then they should downgrade because the pilot has not completed this task.

Anthony

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From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 10:45 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Where does the maneuver start?

This question was brought up at a local contest without a sure answer.
This was specifically referring to the last 2 maneuvers in FAI P-19 but
might apply to other situations as well.  The last 2 maneuvers are a
half Cuban with 2 of 4 on the 45 followed by a square with half rolls.

So when does the square start?  Is it at center?  or at the first pull
up?  It clearly has to finish after center after a straight segment
following the half roll.  If the the half Cuban is flown large so that
it finished after or at center box does that cause a downgrade on the
square or do you start judging at the first pull up (no downgrade)?

You could potentially have a similar question in Masters with the start
of the triangle after the half square on corner turnaround.

Thanks,

Stuart Chale

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