[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question, plus one of mine

Fri Aug 16 08:25:42 AKDT 2019

100 % agree. Impossible judging criteria. Needs a major rewrite.

Someone convince me they can tell the difference in a 13 degree rotation  (no deduction) and 15 degree rotation (deduction). The judging criteria, airplane development  & cost, and complexity of maneuvers have completely driven off the club member who came out to fly his club’s contest with an Ugly stick, Venus,  Andrews Trainermaster, etc. We used to see those guys flying at the home club contest and not travel to any other. Now they don’t even come out to watch or help.

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of Anthony Frackowiak via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 11:14 AM
To: Atwood Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question, plus one of mine

This whole email chain is an example of why the event is dying. It’s just about proof that it is impossible to judge the flying as it has evolved. We keep making the maneuvers more complex, imbalanced and with more elements yet there has not been any significant improvement in a humans ability to absorb all of it and assign a score.

Tony Frackowiak

On Aug 16, 2019, at 7:35 AM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Time out… 

The maneuver is centered based on where it starts, and where it ends.   When done properly, the center of a symmetrical maneuver is fairly obvious and in the case of the two rolls mentioned, the center of the pause between the two rolls, or in the case of no pause, the transition point.    BUT… if one roll is performed more slowly, that does not mean the maneuver is automatically not centered.   They can still center the maneuver, it’s just no longer at the center of the pause between rolls.    So yes, you can have a maneuver that is downgraded for JUST the roll rate change because it’s still centered.  And another where you need to downgrade for both.

Admittedly, that’s tough to watch for as a judge, but there’s no double jeopardy here.

-M

On Aug 16, 2019, at 10:22 AM, Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

CAUTION: Message originated from outside of Paragon. Use caution regarding any links, attachments, credential and financial requests. 

If I understand Anthony's post, I have to agree with him on the double jeopardy point.  If the pilot changes roll rate, then, ipso facto, the second roll will be longer (or shorter) than the first roll.  Since that is the case, downgrading for the delta  roll rate and the change in length of roll would be punishing the same error twice.

I have a question of my own: is the "center" of such a maneuver judged as being on the center of the box, or is it judged as a center point of the maneuver, independent of where the center of the box is?  It seems to me that the center of the maneuver and the center of the box should coincide.

Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, NSRCA 2032, KCRC Emeritus
Knoxville, TN  37931   (865) 604-0541c

On August 15, 2019 at 10:46 AM Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: 

The distance from the end of the first roll should be an equal distance from center as the beginning of the second roll, when a pause is present. Variances in roll rate would be a separate downgrade. Changes in roll rate would affect the overall length but would seem to be double jeopardy to downgrade for centering and if the rolls are true slow rolls, approx 3 seconds, very hard to judge.

Anthony

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:15 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question 

I finally have the World Championships posted on my site in an easy to read pdf format. 

http://pages.suddenlink.net/donramsey

An interesting judging question came up the other day and I would like to get some feedback from the group.  

Are rolling maneuvers, like the current Masters 2 slow rolls reversed, an asymmetrical maneuver?  If the maneuver finishes the first roll just before center (as it should) then changes the roll rate causing the line length of the second roll to be different from the first, should this be considered a centering error in addition to the change in roll rate.

Don

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