[NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
chuenkan at comcast.net
chuenkan at comcast.net
Wed Sep 26 14:35:29 AKDT 2018
Amen, Peter!
Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c
> On September 26, 2018 at 4:17 PM Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Glow model at full throttle -- sure, can happen, has happened -- but when you are starting a glow motor:
> 1. You have someone holding the plane (usually)
> 2. YOU are, or whoever is running the starter is, in FRONT of the plane, natural self-preservation kicks in and causes all kinds of double + triple checking to avoid self-injury.
>
> With electric, it is *rarely* the pilot who is at risk or harmed if an armed airplane pops to full throttle. Hence the "risk" of a glow issue is significantly reduced. You can also tell when a glow motor is "armed" because it's idling. None of that exists with electric.
>
> I totally agree that rules, systems like arming plugs, etc. don't prevent every accident. But, every gun has a safety switch for a reason, and the supervisors at a firing range have a sharp eye out for people not flipping the safety switch when they step back -- shouldn't the same be true for our aircraft?
>
> Peter+
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 12:43 PM Andrew Jesky < andrewjesky at gmail.com mailto:andrewjesky at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> > > So I work in a field that is heavily involved with folks who try and take human factors out of it, even when a soldier is completely in the wrong they try and put a process in place to fix this. What I’ve found is that you can try and limit as many factors as possible but it still comes down to knowing the equipment and how it works. Plain and simple, I have had numerous different folks grab my airplane and never once has it gone full throttle. It’s because I treat it like a loaded gun. It can and will bite if you allow it. So we add an arming plug to prevent this, what do you do to stop a glow model to start at full throttle? There isn’t anything they can do but know there equipment.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Sep 26, 2018, at 3:26 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > > To me the big thing is the *convenience* and *expediency* of disarming via an external plug. Many canopies can be fussy about how they go on and off and, at a contest where we try to keep things moving quickly, especially when one plane has just landed and another is on approach it’s quick and easy for the caller to disarm the plane and carry it into the pits if there is an external device. Without that, and in the hurry-up scenarios it is real easy for an armed plane to get carried into the pits.
> > >
> > > Quite frankly though, it’s not going to happen until the top pilots start setting the example rather than being “part of the problem”. They AREN’T a problem because they fly so much and have a regular caller who knows the routine and quickly disarms the plane, etc. but they need to set an example for the rest who DON’T have those advantages. I get the “point of failure” concerns, and agree that things like the deans arming plug approach, etc. can introduce those. But an anti-spark external arming bullet, IMHO *reduces* points of failure by ensuring you get no carbon buildup on any battery/ESC connections.
> > >
> > > Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > on behalf of Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:12:07 PM
> > > To: derekemmett at yahoo.com mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com ; NSRCA NSRCA
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > >
> > > Derek,
> > >
> > > The key is that you saw him doing that. You could have told him. If you didn't want to tell him you just could make aware of all around to watch out. It is basic safety that has been proved in the industry. Any power electric circuit has to have an external visible disconnect. It is just the basic "Show me rule" We just want to make sure that the gun cannot fire. Of courser there are always exceptions and accidents happen. However, the external arming switch will reduce the chances of accidents for sure.
> > >
> > > Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:06 PM Derek Emmett via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > The method of disarming the plane is only as good as the pilot (external or internal). It is for the pilot to enforce the safety of his plane, otherwise you need a watchdog at every flight line to really see the action take place. In the later many of us take for granted and expect the pilot to do his job. Sometimes we observe the disarming and sometimes we don't. Perhaps this is where the biggest improvement in safety could take place.
> > > >
> > > > This last weekend's pattern contest, I noticed a pilot take his plane out of the car, put it all together, then start to put flight pack in, with the arming plug still installed!? Point is safety errors will happen regardless. We are the drivers of the planes, thus we need to be the 100% responsible party of course. I think the biggest improvement we can immediately apply is to individually watch what our buddies are doing, and just be the extra set of eyes and caution. Lets help each other not make these critical errors.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > > Derek...
> > > >
> > > > On Wednesday, September 26, 2018, 8:47:49 AM PDT, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Both of those incidents were due to pilots not following the statement below. Having an arming plug would not have prevented either incident.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > on behalf of Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:29 AM
> > > > To: Jon Bruml; General pattern discussion
> > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > > >
> > > > Right from the AMA competition guide.
> > > >
> > > > At no time will a model be left unrestrained or unattended while running or with the electric motor power circuit(s) physically connected unless the model is on the runway.
> > > >
> > > > All models that have the capability of Fail Safe in the radio shall have the throttle set to Fail Safe in a way that the motor/engine comes to a complete stop or a minimum idle if it were to lose signal from the transmitter.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Scott A.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------- Original message --------
> > > > From: Jon Bruml via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > Date: 9/26/18 11:10 AM (GMT-05:00)
> > > > To: Joe Lachowski < jlachow at hotmail.com mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com >, Vicente Bortone < vincebrc at gmail.com mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com >, General pattern discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > > >
> > > > Okay how about the FAi pilot who accidentally advanced his throttle in the pits at a June contest and destroyed the entire back end of an Oxai ?
> > > > Only by grace was no one injured
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan Bruml
> > > > Techstyleshttp://www.techstyles.com
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > on behalf of Joe Lachowski via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:07:08 AM
> > > > To: Vicente Bortone; General pattern discussion
> > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So you want to require an arming device based on a sport flyers stupidity.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from Mail https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 for Windows 10
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > on behalf of Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:38:30 AM
> > > > To: Vogel, Peter; NSRCA NSRCA
> > > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > > >
> > > > This is real experience. About 3-4 years ago I was getting ready to fly with another friend. Both of our planes were already in the pits and we just were talking before starting the day. A pilot came with an electric plane and parked between us. He left it there and decided that he needs to go and get something. About a minute later his plane came to live suddenly and took us from the pits. It starting to do an small loop and was coming directly toward us. It was so fast that my friend said "take cover". We were lucky that the plane crashed in front of us and there were no more pilots flying or around. It was so fast that I didn't have time to move an inch and could have hit us easily. The plane didn't have an arming switch outside so there was no way for us to know if was armed. The owner came and we never were able to figure out what really happened.
> > > >
> > > > I think makes sense to put together a formal request that will require external disconnect outside the electric powered planes. It is easy to justify since is already a requirement of the National Electrical Code and OSHA. Anyone out there wants to put together a draft. I will help to signed since I am a CD.
> > > >
> > > > !Gone Flying!
> > > >
> > > > Vicente "Vince" Bortone
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:41 PM Vogel, Peter via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rule says you must disarm the plane before bringing into the pits, does not say how. That can mean take off canopy and unplug. I’ve moved to using a Jeti anti-spark bullet in-line on the red side of the battery-esc connection with the bullet routed to the outside of the plane. Quick, simple, foolproof. Anti-spark prevents carbon buildup on the bullets.
> > > > >
> > > > > Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > > From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org > on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org >
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 5:34:02 PM
> > > > > To: General pattern discussion
> > > > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Guys, what is the current status of arming devices in NSRCA for you electric airplanes? Does anyone know what the AMA says about arming devices -- I can't find my way around the new web site yet, and this is the easy way out! lol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
> > > > > SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
> > > > > Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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>
> --
> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
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