[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
John Gayer
west.engineering at comcast.net
Mon Jul 10 10:02:39 AKDT 2017
Stuart,
You had the 1/2 reverse cuban listed as an inverted exit so I assumed
you wanted to go into the knifeedge inverted.
You want the knifeedge to go from upright to upright then and the rolls
are reversed?
John
On 7/10/2017 11:12 AM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>
> Actually the avalanche has a half roll in and out so it exits
> upright. so a half reverse cuban (1/2 roll) will also exit upright
> which is what we want the exit to be for the knife edge with 1 1/4 rolls
>
>
> On 7/10/2017 10:04 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>> Stuart,
>>
>> I took the liberty of putting your sequence in a new spreadsheet.
>> Some of the exit attitudes didn't work as described like maneuver 11
>> needs to be a full roll to exit inverted and it is a K2 according to
>> the guide. Also the spin is a K3 according to the guide.
>>
>> I have some other ideas but I thought starting with a clean layout
>> might be a good idea. I support what you are trying to do here.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> DESCRIPTION K Exit Notes
>> 1 1
>> 2 U Double Immelman with knife edge flight 5 upright inside 1/2
>> loop then outside 1/2 loop
>> 3 TA 1/2 Square loop on corner with 2of4 roll 2 upright
>> 4 D Pyramid Loop with 2of4, full roll, 2of4 4 upright Push to
>> 135 down……
>> 5 TA 1/2 Square loop with Snap 3 inverted
>> 6 U Six-sided Loop on corner, 1/2 Rolls in leg 1,3 and 4,6 4
>> inverted
>> 7 TA Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>> roll on the downline. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down 3 inverted
>> 8 D 4of8-pt roll, 4of8 opposite 5 inverted I would consider this
>> a K4, inverted 8-pt is K4
>> 9 TA Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed goingup and 1/2 roll down
>> 3 upright
>> 10 U Outside Avalanche with 1/2 rolls 4 upright
>> 11 TA Half reverse Cuban Eight with a full roll on the 45 2
>> inverted Not inverted here and its not a 3, added 1/2 roll
>> 12 D Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out 4 upright
>> rolls same direction
>> 13 TA Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down 2 upright
>> 14 U Figure Z with two rolls on 45 4 upright
>> 15 TA 2turnspin 3 inverted two turn spin is still a K3, not 2
>> 16 D Reverse cuban eight with full rolls 4 inverted
>> 17 TA Stall turn with 1/2 roll down 2 upright
>> 18 U Loop with roll over top 180 5 upright
>> 19 U Landing 1 upright
>>
>> 61
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/9/2017 7:02 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>
>>> Pyramid (triangle from the top base at the bottom) From the top of
>>> the box as you approach center push 3/8 loop to an inverted 45
>>> degree down line 2/4 on this leg to upright. Push 3/8 to inverted
>>> horizontal flight, full roll on this line from inverted push back
>>> 3/8 loop back towards top center. 2/4 on this line to inverted
>>> again, push 3/8 loop back to upright flight
>>>
>>> You are not going to like my answer but as far as the K factor it is
>>> similar to the current P-17 triangle which has a 4 pt roll on the
>>> top leg and still just a K4
>>>
>>> Since you are going to want to make the pyramid large so the 1/2
>>> square down can be big enough not to fear the snap the maneuver
>>> preceding the pyramid the half square on corner needs to be large so
>>> the asymmetrical roll (one leg only) should be fairly easy to do.
>>> Also going up hill so you have more time for the 2/4.
>>>
>>> 6 sided loop K factor being a 5. Can't disagree with you but I can
>>> also make the case for a K4. There are no K5 six sided loops in the
>>> current guidelines. Nothing to compare to say it is as hard or
>>> easier. I think that since it just has 1/2 rolls in it is easier
>>> than the P-17 six sided FAI is flying now. Theirs is a K4.
>>>
>>> I think I agree with what someone said about K factors needing an
>>> overhaul. 'Perhaps going to an IMAC type system to assign K factors
>>> is the right direction to go. This will take a bit of work and
>>> can't happen before these sequences need to be done:) But it is
>>> something to think about for the future.
>>>
>>> As far as the number of spins I am good with 2 or 3 or 1.5 or 2.5
>>> with an added 1/2 roll. You are happy at 3 Jon recommends 2 which
>>> just confirms that not everyone will be happy with the path we chose.
>>>
>>> I think right now there are 3 clear K5 maneuvers. Is the pyramid,
>>> six sided and or 1 1/4 roll to knife edge a K5 maneuver. You can
>>> make a case with support to go either way.
>>>
>>> Let me try to get this to format better. If anyone else has
>>> comments on this version or if you support the original Masters
>>> proposal from the NSRCA website please let us know.
>>>
>>> Masters proposal
>>> Maneuver KF Notes:
>>> 1 Takeoff (U) 1
>>> 2 Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U) 5 Pull to 1/2 loop,
>>> immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction,
>>> immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge
>>> flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
>>> 3
>>>
>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA) 2
>>> 4 Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D) 4 Push back to 45 deg
>>> down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full rollfrom
>>> inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>> upright exit
>>> 5 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>> exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>>> 6 Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>> inverted (U) 4 Push at center no rolls on vertical legs.(inverted
>>> exit)
>>> 7 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted.Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll
>>> down, exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>>> 8 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D) 5 (inverted exit)
>>> 9 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed goingup and 1/2 roll down,
>>> exit upright (TA) 3
>>> 10 Avalanche with 1/2 roll going in and out 4 1/2 roll to
>>> inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top, complete
>>> the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>>> 11 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a1/2 roll roll on the 45 (TA) 3
>>> exit inverted
>>> 12 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D) 4
>>> 13 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA) 2
>>> 14 Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls(U) 4
>>> 15 2 turn spin exit inverted (TA) 2
>>> 16 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D) 4
>>> 17 Stall turn with half rolldown (TA) 2
>>> 18 Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)* 5
>>> 19 Landing (U) 1
>>> Total K-factor 61 Goal is 60 to 63
>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>>
>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>>> maneuvers
>>>
>>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>>
>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>>
>>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>>
>>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/9/2017 5:30 PM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
>>>> Stuart,
>>>>
>>>> Your description of the Pyramid loop still doesn't seem to make
>>>> sense to me. Am I wrong?
>>>>
>>>> I like the Avalanche.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think you've incorporated some of the other changes and as
>>>> such you still have too many, in my opinion, K5 maneuvers. The Six
>>>> Sided loop as proposed should be a K5. I feel the 1 1/4 roll KE is
>>>> a K5. As I mentioned earlier, you could change the Pyramid loop to
>>>> all 1/2 rolls and make it a K4, it's in the Guide that way.
>>>>
>>>> My suggestion, #3 should be a 1/2 Square Loop w/1/2rolls both legs.
>>>> #4 should be Pyramid Loop starting from inverted, 1/2 rolls each
>>>> leg, exit upright.
>>>>
>>>> I would personally keep the 3 turn spin. I wouldn't go less then 2
>>>> with the spin. But you might consider making the Reverse Cuban 8 a
>>>> regular Cuban 8 just to give more distance between the spin and the
>>>> 8. That won't affect the entry in to the Stall Turn.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My suggested sequence. Maneuvers in Red are straight out of the
>>>> Guide. I've given what I can find in the Guide as the closest
>>>> example of a proposed new maneuver.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> #1. Take-off (K1)
>>>>
>>>> #2. Double Immelmann with half roll first, full roll second,
>>>> inverted entry, exit upright (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #3. Half square loop on corner with 1/2 rolls, exit inverted (K2)
>>>>
>>>> #4. Pyramid Loop, inverted entry, 1/2 rolls each leg, exit upright.
>>>> (K4)
>>>> Guide example - Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls
>>>> in all legs, exit inverted (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #5. 1/2 Square Outside, 1 Snap down, exit inverted (K3)
>>>>
>>>> #6. Six Sided Loop on Corner, 1/2 rolls legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>>> inverted (K5)
>>>> Guide example - Six sided loop with 2/4 pt roll on top, inverted
>>>> entry (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #7. Humpty w/Options, exit inverted (K3)
>>>> Guide example - Humpty bump (push, push, push) half roll up, 2/2pt
>>>> roll down, inverted entry (K3)
>>>>
>>>> #8. two 4 of 8 rolls reversed, exit inverted (K5)
>>>> Guide example - 4/8 pt. roll, inverted entry (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #9. Stall Turn, 2 1/2 rolls reversed up, 1/2 roll down, exit
>>>> upright (K3)
>>>> Guide example - Stall Turn, 2/4pt roll up, half roll down,
>>>> inverted entry (K2)
>>>>
>>>> #10. Inverted Avalanche w/1/2 Roll in and out, exit upright (K4)
>>>> Guide example - Avalanche with 1-1/2 snap, inverted entry (from
>>>> bottom) (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #11. Same as proposed, exit upright (K3)
>>>>
>>>> #12. Same as proposed, exit upright (K5)
>>>> Guide example - Knife edge flight (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #13. Same as proposed, exit upright (K2) Might create an option
>>>> that doesn't change position. Suggest 1 roll up, 1/2 roll down.
>>>>
>>>> #14. Figure Z w/2 rolls on 45, exit upright (K4)
>>>> Guide example - Figure Z with 2/2pt roll up (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #15. Three Turn Spin, exit inverted (K2)
>>>> Guide example - Two turn spin (K2)
>>>>
>>>> #16. Cuban 8 w/full rolls, inverted entry and exit (K4)
>>>>
>>>> #17. Stall Turn w/1/2 roll down, exit upright ( K2)
>>>>
>>>> #18. Loop w/Integrated 1 Roll on Top 180, exit upright (K5)
>>>>
>>>> #19. Landing (K1)
>>>>
>>>> Total K - 62
>>>>
>>>> This meets the Guide with a max of 4 K5 maneuvers and is within the
>>>> K limit of 60 to 63. It does have only 9 of the 19 maneuvers
>>>> currently in the Guide. Really 7 of 17 if you don't use the
>>>> Take-off and Landing.
>>>>
>>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can certainly change it to 2 spins without changing anything
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 10:30 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Totally agree with Jon’s thoughts on spins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>> *Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:13 AM
>>>>>> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>;
>>>>>> frackowiak at sbcglobal.net <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much better sequence overall. I believe it is more in line with
>>>>>> the intent of the sequence guide. It certainly makes the
>>>>>> transition from advanced more doable. It also appears to be less
>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One comment. I, and several others, are not fans of end box
>>>>>> spins. In heavy crosswinds, like the last NATS, the plane drifts
>>>>>> as allowed without penalty FOR THAT MANEUVER, even if it goes out
>>>>>> of box. However, unless the proposal to correct this passes the
>>>>>> contest board, the following maneuver gets penalized for cross
>>>>>> box or out of box before the maneuver actually starts. So the
>>>>>> pilot gets a penalty in one maneuver for allowable drift in
>>>>>> another. There is no guarantee the proposal will pass. In this
>>>>>> sequence, a three turn spin allows even more drift than we have
>>>>>> with 2.5 in the current sequence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would argue that the entry and exit of a spin are what really
>>>>>> count in judging. Therefore, if end box spins are kept, reducing
>>>>>> it to one turn or 1.5 with a 1/2 roll out reduces the drift
>>>>>> component considerably. 3 turns is just too many for end box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd also suggest that the top hat have a straight ahead option if
>>>>>> the pilot does not need to correct in and out. I often wish the
>>>>>> current sequence had the option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good effort!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, July 9, 2017 Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lets look at this, we can replace the Double key (K 5) with an
>>>>>> avalanche K3 to get the snap in a center maneuver or lets put the
>>>>>> maneuver we originally had in advanced, and avalanche with ½ roll
>>>>>> in and out (K4), and remove the snap from the next maneuver
>>>>>> reverse cuban turnaround. Also changed a stall turn to ½ rolls
>>>>>> reversed going up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry formatting problems showing up again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KF
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll
>>>>>> same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4
>>>>>> roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright
>>>>>> exit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <CCDCC1C3B1DB44578155E81A66BA48EE.png>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight,
>>>>>> Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt
>>>>>> roll, push to level upright exit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>>>>> exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>>>>> inverted (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>>>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll
>>>>>> down, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down,
>>>>>> exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> avalanche with 1/2 roll in and out (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 roll to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the
>>>>>> top, complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a 1/2 roll on the 45 (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 12
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> exit upright
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 13
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 14
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 16
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 17
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 18
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 19
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 62
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:24 AM
>>>>>> *To: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>; General
>>>>>> pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony thanks for looking at this with an open mind and critical
>>>>>> eye. To be honest I wasn’t going to initially post this but was
>>>>>> convinced to by a group of D 1 flyers at the contest yesterday.
>>>>>> If for no other reason than to show that the committee did
>>>>>> consider a more “conventional” sequence in addition to the one
>>>>>> that was sent out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I did change a few things last night after spending the full
>>>>>> day in the sun and I promise only 1 beer at dinner so I may have
>>>>>> messed up a thing or 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can this be the basis of the recommended sequence? As I
>>>>>> understand the process the committee sends the proposals to the
>>>>>> BOD. They review and in this case have asked for membership
>>>>>> feedback and then make their recommendations to the committee.
>>>>>> If the BOD decides that sequence 1 is too difficult and this one
>>>>>> meets the goals of the NSRCA better then they can ask us to tweak
>>>>>> this one instead. Did I send this out at the request of the
>>>>>> entire sequence committee? No I did not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #4 From top of the box push 3/8 loop to a 45 2 of 4 push back to
>>>>>> level inverted flight full roll across the bottom push back 3/8
>>>>>> loop to a 45 degree up line towards top center of the box 2 of 4
>>>>>> and push 3/8 loop back to horizontal (upright)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can easily make a case to be a K5 😊
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #6 correct ½ rolls only I will have to review current maneuvers
>>>>>> for the K factor. Pretty late right now but I wanted to provide a
>>>>>> response as best I could.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #12 comes from P19 and that is the k factor they gave it so that
>>>>>> is what we were using right or wrong we have to start somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Double key only reason it is in here is it is in P19 and as I
>>>>>> stated I sort of like having a few of the same maneuvers as FAI
>>>>>> (not the clown dance) I need to try to fly it to see if it
>>>>>> really a good maneuver or not but it is certainly an easy place
>>>>>> to swap to a K4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roll reversal: The knife edge flight you have to roll the other
>>>>>> way after knife edge to come out upright. But one can be put in
>>>>>> the stall turns as well or somewhere else if we think another one
>>>>>> needs to be included.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Snaps. You are correct I misplaced one trying to simplify the
>>>>>> pattern a little. Maybe after the 1 1/4 roll in the middle of the
>>>>>> knife edge flight 😊
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will look at the sequence and get one back in there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:48 AM
>>>>>> *To: *Stuart Chale <mailto:schale1 at outlook.com>; General pattern
>>>>>> discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #4. The description doesn't seem to make sense. Isn't it an
>>>>>> upright entry, PUSH to 45, 2 of 4 roll, PULL to level flight,
>>>>>> Full roll from upright to upright, PULL to 45, 2 of 4 roll, push
>>>>>> to exit upright? Or am I missing something? Also, it seems to be
>>>>>> pushing being a K4. Here are the two closest examples in the Guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in all legs,
>>>>>> exit inverted (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Triangular loop from top (base at bottom) w/ half rolls on 45
>>>>>> degree legs, 2/4-pt roll on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> base leg (K5)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would seem that the maneuver proposed should be a K5. You
>>>>>> might want to go with 1/2 rolls on all legs and redo a few things
>>>>>> to get the upright/inverted thing going again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #6. I had to actually draw this one out to visualize it. Just so
>>>>>> I'm sure, you enter inverted and at center push to a 30 degree
>>>>>> angle? I like the maneuver but I think it's really a K5 not a 4.
>>>>>> The Guide has no 6-sided loop on corner, but a standard 6-sided
>>>>>> with just a 2 of 4 on top is a K4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #12. I still feel that a very good case can be made that this
>>>>>> maneuver is a K5, not a K4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both snaps are in turnaround maneuvers. You need a center snap.
>>>>>> Guide says: Minimum of two Snap Rolls but no more than three
>>>>>> (one may be a turnaround maneuver).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only roll reversal is in the 4/8 opposite. You might want to
>>>>>> incorporate another in one of the looping maneuvers. Maybe in the
>>>>>> Figure Z. Maybe a 3 of 4 with a reverse 3 of 4. Or something
>>>>>> less. Maybe just reverse the 2 rolls. But that might bump it to a
>>>>>> K5 also.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have to address the snap issue and in my opinion you have too
>>>>>> many K5 maneuvers. Maximum according to the Guide is 4. I think
>>>>>> this has to be addressed. I would dump the Double Key and use a
>>>>>> K4 from the Guide in it's place as a start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise to me it looks like a better pattern to work with then
>>>>>> the current proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any chance that what is worked out here might actually
>>>>>> make it in as an official proposal?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you, you are correct I swapped the Cuban with a roll to
>>>>>> allow better entry to the knife edge roll
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To keep the Cuban an inverted entry and exit we can change
>>>>>> the spin to 3 turn spin with an inverted exit (may bump the k?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And change the stall turn to 1/2 roll down only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> KF
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4
>>>>>> roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
>>>>>> immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
>>>>>> direction to level upright exit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <olpknaibinkfmdnp.png>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>>>>> flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line,
>>>>>> 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down
>>>>>> line, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
>>>>>> exit inverted (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>>>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4
>>>>>> roll down, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 9
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stall turn with 2/2 rolls up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Double Key with full roll, 1/2 roll, 1/2 roll, full roll (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pull to a vert up line, full roll, pull back to a 45 deg down
>>>>>> line, 1/2 roll, push to a 45 deg up line, 1/2 roll, pull to a
>>>>>> vertical downline, full roll, pull to level upright exit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a positive snap roll roll on
>>>>>> the 45 (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> exit inverted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 12
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 13
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 14
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 16
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 17
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 18
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 19
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 62
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/9/2017 12:12 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>> I believe the reverse cuban with full rolls should be
>>>>>> from upright.
>>>>>> Good luck with this.
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
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>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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