[NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

[Ed Alt]

+1e6


________________________________
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of DaveL322 via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 12:59 PM
To: blotch44026 at mypacks.net; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

Back in the day, pattern planes were very loud.  A noise rule was put in place, and the planes became quiet.  The noise rule is not checked locally, but the planes are quiet, so the existence of the rule has accomplished its goal.

Limits provide goals/bounds/targets for aircraft and equipment.  The lack of specific enforcement at local levels (generally a logistical consideration of minimal resources) does not make the airplanes louder or grow bigger.

If someone at a local level regularly attended pattern events with a clearly overweight or loud plane, I know in D1 the pilot would be encouraged and helped to reduce weight and noise.

Regards,

Dave

Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.

-------- Original message --------
From: blotch44026--- via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: 1/27/17 11:59 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, 'Charlie Barrera' <charliebarrera at consolidated.net>, 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

I have a question about the weight rule. Why isn't it enforced? We have a 2 meter rule that is, and it makes perfect sense. Any CD knows that an IMAC plane is not legal in all but the Sportsman class and that rule is enforced at all contests, for good reason.

If the current weight rule is our safe space that protects the sport then we should adhere to the rule across the board. Right? Advocates say, obey the rules, its the right thing to do, it keeps costs down and is an equalizer.

My reasoning is, if advocates of the rule feel so strongly about its a protective quality's, then why are they not screaming for it's enforcement? Why would you not enforce something that is vital to our sports health? I am really curious about this. Is there a consensus that the Nats helps save the sport because the weight rule is enforced there? We should add a disclaimer to the current rule "we don't really meant it, but if you want to compete at our Nation event, your plane must weigh this amount ".

I am all for protecting and growing our sport. If their is an historical precedent that informs us of the potential demise of pattern by eliminating or modifying the current weight rule, then by all means, I am for it. All I am hearing from advocates is conjecture.

Perhaps at least modify the rule to exclude local contests, that's what happens now, right? Then, at least some of us can fly with a clear conscious knowing we are doing the right thing.

Imagine helping someone entering the sport and you are explaining some of the rules. By the way, we have a weight rule. Your airplane must be within these weight specs in your class or you will be disqualified from an event or any event going forward. That would surely drain the swamp. I agree with most rules and know why we need them. I am a firm believer that weight rule as it is currently written does more harm than good for our sport.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Jan 26, 2017 9:47 PM
To: 'Charlie Barrera' , 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

+10000

Wow I mentioned this to someone else participating on this thread about 4 months ago.  The advantage of this is that everyone has to buy the same plane therefore the manufacture is guaranteed a good sized market.  Probably want to specify a specific motor too.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Barrera via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 5:45 PM
To: Keith Hoard; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

We can solve this whole weight issue by designating one 2 meter airplane to compete with, like NASCAR does it with race cars. It can be of any size, but must be the same airplane for electric, and the same airplane for glow. Then weight doesn’t matter. In my opinion, the lighter airplane might have the advantage, because of the power to weight ratio.

…Charlie

On Jan 26, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

I can't agree with you more. . .

Sent from my Windows 10 phone



Come on kieth i dont give two hoots if the lower classes fly 40%ers .. I do have objection to changing the weight requirements for masters and up ....


G
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Sure thing, Ron. . . I’ll show you how it’s done . . . . by skipping the weight check in Advanced!!

I don’t have the time or the energy to go back thru this thread, but I’d bet dinner in Blytheville that all of the “Nays” are flying Masters & FAI, and the “Yay’s” are flying Advanced and below.

This whole discussion reminds me of the retract rule for Sportsman “back in the day”.  The only folks who were opposed to Sportsman class pulling up their gear were the ones flying the higher classes and it amazed me at how long it took to get that rule removed.  If the guys flying that class want a rule change and you don’t fly that class . . . why do you care?  Ever wonder why there has been such stagnation in the lower classes?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt . . . .




From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 1:55 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

I think that’s a wonderful idea!

I’m counting on you competing at the Nats in Blytheville and show us all how it’s done.

Ron

On Jan 26, 2017, at 1:30 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

How about this?

Club Class thru Advanced – Remove Weight Limit since nobody designs specifically for these classes and thus the 20lb. YS300DZ nightmare will never come true . .

. . . then . .

Masters Class – Reduce weight limit from 11lbs. down to 9 lbs. - Since 11 lbs. is such a great idea, then knocking off another 2 lbs. should make it fantastic!!

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of blotch44026--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 1:25 PM
To: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com<mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>>; blotch44026 at mypacks.net<mailto:blotch44026 at mypacks.net>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?


I was just wondering what I could possibly do to remove some weight from an airplane (a good one) that hits the boundaries of our weight rules out-of-the-box? The arguments have been folks are using heavy motors, heavy wheels, heavy surface controls....etc. I placed the lightest components you can purchase and I am still knocking on the door. I am wondering what guys are doing?


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott McHarg
Sent: Jan 26, 2017 12:56 PM
To: blotch44026 at mypacks.net<mailto:blotch44026 at mypacks.net>, General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?
Lest we forget, Sportsman - Advanced actually has 5165 grams which was increased 50 grams last year.  Masters now has 5050 grams which was also adopted last year with the 1% tolerance.  I was pro weight increase until we got the 1%.  Now, I must agree with Dave L.  and we did not see a growth in pattern with the additional weight added this last year.  I'm not so sure we would with another increase.

Although the USA has more pattern fliers than most, if not all other countries, most manufacturers do not build to our (AMA) specifications (although some are doing a great job of trying to give us "what we want").  Manufacturers, especially in a niche market) are going to build based on what can be sold to the whole world.  Plugs and molds are very expensive to make, tooling is another story.  Manufacturers and those designers that utilize manufacturers in other countries don't have an unlimited budget to have different variants of the same model when, in reality, a small number (from a manufacturing standpoint) will be sold as a whole.  All this to say that we are an oddity.  The rest of the world flies introductory classes as well but with the sole intent to finally be able to fly FAI.  You actually have to earn that right in many places.  This is why the 110-size class has come started to become popular in other parts of the world.  Fly the 110's in the intro classes and then you can step up to your Formula 1 machine when you earn the right.

A.R.F. aircraft have changed our hobby largely.  We, as modelers (can we really be called this anymore) are holding manufacturers responsible for what we buy when we buy it.  If it's overweight, it's their fault.  When you build your own, only you are held accountable.  You select the balsa, you decide and the glass cloth, paint, clear coat, etc.  You actually take the time to make sure it is perfect.  Now, we look for whatever the next guy is flying and decide that's what we're going to use too.  We don't know what kind of work Dave L., AJ, etc. has put into their A.R.F., we just make the assumption that it was off the shelf so if he made weight, so should we.

All just food for thought.

Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:25 AM, blotch44026--- via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
I forgot to mention fuse weight included an Pletty Advanced
-----Original Message-----
From: blotch44026--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Jan 26, 2017 12:19 PM
To: "Dr. Mike Harrison" , General pattern discussion , 'John Fuqua' , 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?
Out of the box Invitation before any flights:

Fuse - 3115grams (weighed with Powerbox duel receiver reg, standard landing gear, Futaba BLS451 for Rudder, stab halves with Futaba 9650's and Castle ESC 80 light, along with Falcon carbon prop light and a Falcon carbon spinner)
Leftwing Panel - 359grams (wing weighed with Futaba S9551)
RightWing Panel - 361grams (wing weighed with Futaba S9551)
RX Batts - 2 TP 480mah - 60grams
WingTube - 51grams
Arming Plug 17grams
Total Weight = 3963

Compact 2 5000mah 1125grams

Total Flying Weight=5088grams

I could remove the Regulator and save 46grams

Total Flying Weight=5042grams

I could remove Arming plug

Total Flying Weight=5025grams

All of the equipment installed could be considered the higher end of the market...

500 flights and 2 landing gear repairs later - Well I have not bothered weighing it.

The plane does fly very well though...

Any thoughts?

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
Sent: Jan 26, 2017 11:27 AM
To: 'John Fuqua' , 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?
What I take away from here is that there are very good points by all.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 8:26 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

Agree totally.   Weight is a false flag for Masters and FAI.    It made some sense to raise the weight for the lower classes as they often fly pass down previously owned planes which tend to grow in weight as they are passed around.

My fear has always been the law of unintended consequences when a radical change is made without fully appreciating the ingenuity of the pattern people.


From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:45 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

IF all other things are equal, heavier does not fly better.  The “IF” is rarely (if ever) considered by proponents of raising the weight limit.

IF the added weight is used to increase power, size, or performance, it is an advantage that will raise the performance (and cost) and nothing changes except the cost has increased for everyone.  The reason so many planes are close to the limits is because they have been designed for the greatest performance available within the limits, by pushing right up to the limits.

Most airplane designers have recommended equipment to complete the plane at or below the weight limit.  The electric “pigs” that won’t make the weight limit are ALL the modern day large 2M planes when equipped with the heaviest motor, heaviest motor batteries, heaviest RX/servo power supply (dual redundant everything with 10 amp magnetic switches), heaviest servos, heaviest linkages, heaviest wheels, plethora of telemetry sensors, etc.  Any airplane can be made overweight.  If someone has the opinion it is ok to be less competitive for being overweight, being less competitive with a smaller plane that does make weight is pretty much the same scenario (but is legal to the letter of the rules).

I don’t think we get a lot of new people flying pattern at the NATs…which…in practice is the only contest where weight is checked.  In the northeast US, any number of contests have advertised waivers of the weight limit, and in ~20 years, there have been very few overweight entrants, and I can’t think of any pattern converts as a result of waiving the weight limit.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Oscar via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 9:27 PM
To: Patternpilot One <patternpilot1 at hotmail.com<mailto:patternpilot1 at hotmail.com>>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

😀😀😀

On Jan 25, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
I see the potential for more people to fly pattern without the weight limit.

Sa.



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Date: 1/25/17 5:34 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Whodaddy Whodaddy <whodaddy10 at gmail.com<mailto:whodaddy10 at gmail.com>>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?
Hmmmm. No weight limit...

I see a new market for a full 2M wing span on bi-planes sporting a YS-300DZ twin on the horizon... vbg



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Date: 1/25/17 4:20 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules Proposal Cycle?

Not a fan of rule change for weight .. Cost is an obsolete argument blah blah blah ... Im well under with no extravagant $$$ or measures ... If manufacturers are building heavy components for their planes  and that plane is overweight then dont buy the dang thing .. There is enough information as to the dews and donts to get planes under weight and wat planes leave the factory as over weight pigs... .. I you dont pay attention its ur fault u fly a pig ... Dont change the rules cause u refuse to pay attention ...

Nuff said

G

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Jas S via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
There is one. The pilot with an 'over weight' can now compete at the Nats

Jas iP

On Jan 25, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Come on now!  How can hobby shops make some $$$ on a customer who needs to “buy some lightne
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