[NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???

Mon Aug 7 11:28:32 AKDT 2017

Didn't we have a limitation of number of turns after passing in front of
the judges after exiting the box?  I think this was in the old versions and
I could not find it in the new version.  Probably, I just missed.  If I am
correct, doing the additionals turns was not allowed and landing would be
automatically zeroed.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> That’s interesting.  I remembered the first part about after takeoff, but
> couldn’t remember exactly what it said.
>
> I did not remember the second part about before landing.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 7, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Rule is still there (no hotdogging) between takeoff and entry into box and
> box exit to landing.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 7, 2017 12:07:39 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???
>
> Hmmmm.  No 360 degree turn on landing approach.  What about a loop on
> landing approach?
>
> It reminds me of a rule that was inserted, which basically prohibits
> aerobatic maneuvers after takeoff and before entering the box.  We used to
> call it Kimbro’s rule.
>
> Ron
>
> On Aug 7, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Wow way via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> I would probably zero the landing once the plane turns base to final
> unless there was some good reason for the pilot to abort the landing other
> than a bad approach.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 7, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> It's less about loopholes, and more about enforcing intent vs the letter
> of the regulation.  A pretty common American focus in our legal system.
>
> A big part simply depends on whether you're advocating for or against the
> pilot.    For example, doing a half roll rather than 2of 4pt.   The rule
> book says that missing a hesitation is a five point downgrade. If you're
> giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt.  If not, many will zero that as
> having performed the wrong maneuver.
>
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Seems to me like there are multiple loopholes, and variances on rules
> given the day, or how many birds chirped that morning
>
> My two cents
>
>
>
> Matthew E Finley
> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
> 248-794-8487 <(248)%20794-8487> mobile
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Date: 8/7/17 11:57 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: "S. McNickle" <nelson_jett at comcast.net>, General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???
>
> I agree...
>
> as a side note... It appears to be a loophole and you have a valid point
> as well
>
> Somewhere in between is a good balance and perhaps a rule change to
> clarify.
>
> As written, it shouldn't be downgraded, however, it should not be an
> unlimited approach attempts.
>
> Let's work together for a rule change submission to close this loophole.
>
> LD
>
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "S. McNickle" <nelson_jett at comcast.net>
> Date: 8/7/17 10:37 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: Larry Diamond <ldiamond at diamondrc.com>, General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, Don Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???
>
> Not taking it personally, Larry, it's all cool.
>
> Just want to know what the rule is for future reference.
>
>
> Scott
>
> On August 7, 2017 at 10:25 AM Larry Diamond <ldiamond at diamondrc.com>
> wrote:
>
> Scott my friend, it was not my intent to personalize this... I was very
> careful in my wording and presentation to prevent that.
>
> Again, I did protest per the regulations. A decision was made, and I
> absolutely respected and accepted it. AND I still love you man !!!
>
> Now the question is, what is the correct interpretation?
>
> To imply a limit would mean adding opinion to the rule book. As the rule
> is written, there is no limit. However, in reality do we really think a
> pilot will abuse this interpretation? I don't think so, and it could have
> saved some planes, especially in the lower classes; and, help retain pilots
> just starting out. Also keep in mind the wind was very challenging about 15
> degrees of crosswind blowing 10 to 15 and gusting to ???
>
> However, since it is now out there...
>
> The round was a throw away round. I knew it before I saw the scores as I
> zeroed a maneuver already. Even if I knew it would be a zero, I still would
> have done the same thing.
>
> If the landing was scored a 10 by both judges, It was still my lowest raw
> score and calculating the normalized score, it would have been the lowest
> of 6 rounds. The call didn't change the outcome of the round or the results
> of the contest.
>
> With that said, I am not upset. I have been coached at one time to do
> exactly that, albeit, many moons ago.
>
> So now, if I was correct, how many damaged planes could be saved by
> Sportsman and Intermediate by recognizing a bad approach without penalty vs
> deciding any score is better than a zero, and break out the gear or worse.
> This is my reasoning for asking on this forum.
>
> The key is:
> 1) Plane does not drop below 2 meters at anytime on the approach.
>
> 2) The pilot never calls the landing.
>
> 3) No part of the plane crosses the center line .
>
> LD
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "S. McNickle via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
> Date: 8/7/17 8:28 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, Don
> Ramsey <donramsey at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???
>
> Don,
>
>
> Does this mean a pilot is entitled to unlimited landing approaches so long
> as he does not cross the center line or drop below two meters?
>
> I was one of the judges in Larry's original question.  He had been
> instructed to orbit for a short while due to an aircraft on the runway, was
> then cleared to land and did his go-around without crossing the center line
> on his own.  Was he allowed to do this as many times as he wanted?
>
>
> Scott
>
> On August 7, 2017 at 7:59 AM Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Score the landing normally.  The pilot has not made any errors that result
> in downgrade of the landing using the Competition Regs. The model does not
> pass center more than twice, it is not in the landing maneuver when the
> turn was executed because it is above 2 meters, and it did not pass behind
> the judges.
>
>
> Another situation is model is on a low long approach and goes below 2
> meters then pops up higher, flies some distance, then the pilot calls
> landing.  I start scoring where the model first goes below 2 meters not
> when the pilots makes his landing call.
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Larry Diamond
> via NSRCA-discussion
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:04 PM
> *To:* 'General pattern discussion'
> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???
>
>
> Review the AMA Pattern Rules as follows and then judge the scenario as a
> “Zero” or “Scored Landing when called by the pilot”:
>
>
> *14. Flight pattern and maneuvering area (pg 17, AMA Radio Control
> Aerobatics 2016-2017)*
>
> *14.1. *
>
> Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be
> executed, except after takeoff and before landing, *where in each case a
> maximum of two (2) passes may be made*. In the maneuver lists that follow
> (U) and (D) denote mandatory maneuver orientation (Upwind –Downwind). This
> orientation or Direction of Flight shall be determined by the direction of
> takeoff. The direction is the contestant’s choice and shall be announced to
> the judges prior to takeoff. In all classes, entry into the maneuvering
> area for the first maneuver after takeoff shall be in the same direction as
> takeoff.
>
> *14.1.1. *
>
> The contestant or helper may request a different landing direction to that
> used for takeoff without penalty to avoid downwind landings. This option
> may only be used if the wind direction changes after the takeoff has
> started. If this option is used, a maximum of two (2) passes in front of
> the judges may be used to position the model for landing. *However, any
> turns used for positioning the aircraft may not be made at center.*
>
>
> *14.3. *
>
> If an illegal pass (*crossing a line perpendicular to and centered on the
> judges*) is made, *the maneuver which should have been executed shall be
> scored zero (0)*.
>
>
> *Scenario*
>
> On a final approach for landing, the pilot evaluates the glide path is not
> correct and makes a 180 degree turn away from the flight line to a downwind
> leg to restart the landing approach.
>
>                 *Consideration:*
>
> 1)The pilot has not called the landing.
>
> 2) The pilot announces the aborted approach prior to the 180 degree turn
> to downwind leg.
>
> 3) The plane never goes below 2m, roughly about 5+ meters when the
> approach was aborted.
>
> 4) The 180 degree turn is completed without crossing the centerline.
>
> 5) Pilot calls landing on the next pass (approach) and lands the plane
> successfully.
>
>
> *Do you: (please explain your conclusion and reference the AMA rule
> supporting it)*
>
> A)    Zero the landing because the pilot only gets one shot at the
> approach once centerline is crossed on the downwind leg.
>
> B)    Score the landing made on the second pass  (approach) as a normal
> landing with no downgrades for the aborted approach.
>
> C)    Other.
>
>
> LD
>
>
>
>
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