<div dir="ltr">Didn't we have a limitation of number of turns after passing in front of the judges after exiting the box? I think this was in the old versions and I could not find it in the new version. Probably, I just missed. If I am correct, doing the additionals turns was not allowed and landing would be automatically zeroed. </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Vicente "Vince" Bortone</div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word;">That’s interesting. I remembered the first part about after takeoff, but couldn’t remember exactly what it said.<div><br></div><div>I did not remember the second part about before landing.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><span><div>On Aug 7, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_1650658517795920837Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div>
<div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word;"><span>
<div id="m_1650658517795920837compose-container" style="direction:ltr">
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<div style="direction:ltr">Rule is still there (no hotdogging) between takeoff and entry into box and box exit to landing. </div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="m_1650658517795920837acompli_signature">Get <a href="https://aka.ms/o0ukef" target="_blank">Outlook for iOS</a></div>
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<hr style="width:98%;display:inline-block">
</span><div id="m_1650658517795920837divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><span><b>From:</b> NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion-bounces@<wbr>lists.nsrca.org</a>> on behalf of Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>><br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 7, 2017 12:07:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???</div></div></font>
<div> </div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<div style="-ms-word-wrap: break-word;">Hmmmm. No 360 degree turn on landing approach. What about a loop on landing approach?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It reminds me of a rule that was inserted, which basically prohibits aerobatic maneuvers after takeoff and before entering the box. We used to call it Kimbro’s rule.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Aug 7, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Wow way via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_1650658517795920837Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div>I would probably zero the landing once the plane turns base to final unless there was some good reason for the pilot to abort the landing other than a bad approach. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 7, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div></div>
<div>It's less about loopholes, and more about enforcing intent vs the letter of the regulation. A pretty common American focus in our legal system. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A big part simply depends on whether you're advocating for or against the pilot. For example, doing a half roll rather than 2of 4pt. The rule book says that missing a hesitation is a five point downgrade. If you're giving the pilot the benefit
of the doubt. If not, many will zero that as having performed the wrong maneuver. </div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Aug 7, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Seems to me like there are multiple loopholes, and variances on rules given the day, or how many birds chirped that morning </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My two cents </div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<div id="m_1650658517795920837composer_signature">Matthew E Finley
<div>Q.C.I Technical Assistant</div>
<div><a href="tel:(248)%20794-8487" target="_blank" value="+12487948487">248-794-8487</a> mobile </div>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 8/7/17 11:57 AM (GMT-05:00) </div>
<div>To: "S. McNickle" <<a href="mailto:nelson_jett@comcast.net" target="_blank">nelson_jett@comcast.net</a>>, General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>>, Don Ramsey <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ??? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>I agree...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>as a side note... It appears to be a loophole and you have a valid point as well</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Somewhere in between is a good balance and perhaps a rule change to clarify.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As written, it shouldn't be downgraded, however, it should not be an unlimited approach attempts.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let's work together for a rule change submission to close this loophole.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>LD</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="m_1650658517795920837composer_signature">
<div style="color:rgb(87,87,87);font-size:85%" dir="auto">Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: "S. McNickle" <<a href="mailto:nelson_jett@comcast.net" target="_blank">nelson_jett@comcast.net</a>>
</div>
<div>Date: 8/7/17 10:37 AM (GMT-06:00) </div>
<div>To: Larry Diamond <<a href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" target="_blank">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</a>>, General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>>, Don Ramsey <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">donramsey@gmail.com</a>>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ??? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><p>Not taking it personally, Larry, it's all cool.</p><p>Just want to know what the rule is for future reference.</p><p><br>
</p><p>Scott</p>
<blockquote type="cite">On August 7, 2017 at 10:25 AM Larry Diamond <<a href="mailto:ldiamond@diamondrc.com" target="_blank">ldiamond@diamondrc.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<div>Scott my friend, it was not my intent to personalize this... I was very careful in my wording and presentation to prevent that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, I did protest per the regulations. A decision was made, and I absolutely respected and accepted it. AND I still love you man !!!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now the question is, what is the correct interpretation?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To imply a limit would mean adding opinion to the rule book. As the rule is written, there is no limit. However, in reality do we really think a pilot will abuse this interpretation? I don't think so, and it could have saved some planes, especially
in the lower classes; and, help retain pilots just starting out. Also keep in mind the wind was very challenging about 15 degrees of crosswind blowing 10 to 15 and gusting to ???</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, since it is now out there...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The round was a throw away round. I knew it before I saw the scores as I zeroed a maneuver already. Even if I knew it would be a zero, I still would have done the same thing. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the landing was scored a 10 by both judges, It was still my lowest raw score and calculating the normalized score, it would have been the lowest of 6 rounds. The call didn't change the outcome of the round or the results of the contest.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With that said, I am not upset. I have been coached at one time to do exactly that, albeit, many moons ago.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So now, if I was correct, how many damaged planes could be saved by Sportsman and Intermediate by recognizing a bad approach without penalty vs deciding any score is better than a zero, and break out the gear or worse. This is my reasoning for
asking on this forum.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The key is:</div>
<div>1) Plane does not drop below 2 meters at anytime on the approach.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) The pilot never calls the landing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3) No part of the plane crosses the center line .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>LD</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-composer_signature">
<div style="color:rgb(87,87,87);font-size:85%" dir="auto">Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: "S. McNickle via NSRCA-discussion" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>></div>
<div>Date: 8/7/17 8:28 AM (GMT-06:00)</div>
<div>To: General pattern discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>>, Don Ramsey <<a href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com" target="_blank">donramsey@gmail.com</a>></div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><p>Don,</p><p><br>
</p><p>Does this mean a pilot is entitled to unlimited landing approaches so long as he does not cross the center line or drop below two meters?</p><p>I was one of the judges in Larry's original question. He had been instructed to orbit for a short while due to an aircraft on the runway, was then cleared to land and did his go-around without crossing the center line on his own. Was he allowed
to do this as many times as he wanted?</p><p><br>
</p><p>Scott</p>
<blockquote type="cite">On August 7, 2017 at 7:59 AM Don Ramsey via NSRCA-discussion <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<div class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-WordSection1"><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Score the landing normally. The pilot has not made any errors that result in downgrade of the landing using the Competition Regs. The model does not pass center more than
twice, it is not in the landing maneuver when the turn was executed because it is above 2 meters, and it did not pass behind the judges.
</span></p>
<div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Another situation is model is on a low long approach and goes below 2 meters then pops up higher, flies some distance, then the pilot calls landing. I start scoring where
the model first goes below 2 meters not when the pilots makes his landing call.</span></p>
<div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">From:</span></strong><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"> NSRCA-discussion [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">mailto:nsrca-discussion-<wbr>bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:04 PM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> 'General pattern discussion'<br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> [NSRCA-discussion] Landing - Rules Interpretation ???</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div> <br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal">Review the AMA Pattern Rules as follows and then judge the scenario as a “Zero” or “Scored Landing when called by the pilot”:</p>
<div> <br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><strong><em><span style="font-size:14pt">14. Flight pattern and maneuvering area (pg 17, AMA Radio Control Aerobatics 2016-2017)</span></em></strong></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-Default" style="margin-left:0.5in"><strong><em><span style="font-size:11.5pt">14.1.
</span></em></strong></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-Default" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:11.5pt">Each time the model passes in front of the judges, a maneuver must be executed, except after takeoff and before
landing, <u>where in each case a maximum of two (2) passes may be made</u>. In the maneuver lists that follow (U) and (D) denote mandatory maneuver orientation (Upwind –Downwind). This orientation or Direction of Flight shall be determined by the
direction of takeoff. The direction is the contestant’s choice and shall be announced to the judges prior to takeoff. In all classes, entry into the maneuvering area for the first maneuver after takeoff shall be in the same direction as takeoff.
</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-Default" style="margin-left:1in"><em><span style="font-size:11.5pt">14.1.1.
</span></em></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:11.5pt">The contestant or helper may request a different landing direction to that used for takeoff without penalty
to avoid downwind landings. This option may only be used if the wind direction changes after the takeoff has started. If this option is used, a maximum of two (2) passes in front of the judges may be used to position the model for landing.
<u>However, any turns used for positioning the aircraft may not be made at center.</u></span></p>
<div style="margin-left:1in"> <br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-Default" style="margin-left:0.5in"><strong><em><span style="font-size:11.5pt">14.3.
</span></em></strong></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:11.5pt">If an illegal pass (<u>crossing a line perpendicular to and centered on the judges</u>) is made,
<u>the maneuver which should have been executed shall be scored zero (0)</u>.</span></p>
<div style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:11.5pt"> </span><br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><strong><em><span style="font-size:14pt">Scenario</span></em></strong></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">On a final approach for landing, the pilot evaluates the glide path is not correct and makes a 180 degree turn away from the flight line to a downwind
leg to restart the landing approach.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">
<strong><em>Consideration:</em></strong></span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">1)The pilot has not called the landing.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">2) The pilot announces the aborted approach prior to the 180 degree turn to downwind leg.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">3) The plane never goes below 2m, roughly about 5+ meters when the approach was aborted.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">4) The 180 degree turn is completed without crossing the centerline.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt">5) Pilot calls landing on the next pass (approach) and lands the plane successfully.</span></p>
<div style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span><br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><strong><em><span style="font-size:14pt">Do you: (please explain your conclusion and
<u>reference the AMA rule</u> supporting it)</span></em></strong></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoListParagraph">
<span style="font-size:14pt">A)</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-size:14pt">Zero the landing because the pilot only gets one shot at the approach once centerline is crossed on the downwind leg.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoListParagraph">
<span style="font-size:14pt">B)</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-size:14pt">Score the landing made on the second pass (approach) as a normal landing with no downgrades for the aborted approach.</span></p><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoListParagraph">
<span style="font-size:14pt">C)</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:7pt">
</span><span style="font-size:14pt">Other.</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:14pt"> </span><br class="m_1650658517795920837webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="m_1650658517795920837ox-1908b712c4-ox-a85d371493-MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt">LD</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote><p><br>
</p>
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