[NSRCA-discussion] Competition

[W Anthony Abdullah]

Sorry, that was meant to be off list.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:30 AM, W Anthony Abdullah via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> Are you the same James Hiller that flies Jets out of Lordstown Ohio?
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Sep 21, 2016, at 11:13 AM, James Hiller via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
>> I lifted this from the NSRCA sight
>>  
>> Club Sequence
>> Maneuver
>> 1. Takeoff Sequence (U)
>> 2. Straight Flight Out (U)
>> 3. Procedure Turn (T)
>> 4. Straight Flight Back (D)
>> 5. Stall Turn without Rolls (U)
>> 6. Immelman Turn (U)
>> 7. 45 Degree upline (U)
>> 8. Straight Inverted Flight (D)
>> 9. Two Inside Loops (U)
>> 10. Landing Sequence (U)
>>  
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 6:56 AM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> Yeah jeez. I guess it’s time we stopped being such a secret society. I like the idea of sport modeler friendly maneuver schedules. Like I said, this WAS the original intention of the Sportsman schedule but it somehow drifted away from that slightly.
>>  
>> Guys, how about if we come up with 2 new <NON RULEBOOK> schedules for the masses. I worked on the sequence committee a few years ago – I would be willing to do it again for this stuff.
>>  
>> What kind of low-cost promotional materials / handouts can we come up with? Over the Winter most clubs have a show and tell session at their meetings. This would be a good time to spark people’s interest with this stuff.
>>  
>> John Pavlick
>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>  
>> <image001.png>
>> Integrated Development Services
>>  
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 12:42 AM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> Thanks John…..
>> My thoughts were not intended for any one individual to try….but perhaps the NSRCA could figure out a way to address the difficulty of all the patterns in order to globally promote activity.
>> Or….sort of a ‘try it, you’ll like it’ second set of class(s) of maneuvers aimed at club members across the country….and leave the existing classes alone.
>> If this could be done…..NSRCA members of these clubs could bring the new maneuver series to club meetings to promote Pattern activity in general.
>> I think a grass roots effort could be made in this or a similar way…..and I believe that the NSRCA should take the lead on something like this.
>>  
>> Several months ago a guy came to one of the local clubs and gave a huge promotion about FPV drone racing.
>> I’ve never seen such a huge presentation….stickers, hats, shirts, promises of new members…etc etc.
>>  
>> David Harmon
>> Sperry, OK
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:52 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> Dave,
>> Sorry - poor choice of words there. I get your point. As I said in one of my earlier posts: people first attempting to fly a Pattern sequence (usually Sportsman although I’ve seen some try to start out in Intermediate) struggle with the box “concept”. It’s big hurdle for some people. The way I usually deal with it is to tell them that they won’t crash if they break the box. It’s just an imaginary line that the plane doesn’t even care about. Most will continue to work through it and eventually succeed. In any case they become a better pilot.
>>  
>> What the heck try whatever you think will work and let us know how it goes. We don’t need to create an “official” sequence just to get people started. That was actually the original intention of the Sportsman Sequence. It was (maybe it still is?) a “provisional” class. That’s why it’s not flown at the Nat’s. It’s “easy” for an experienced Pattern pilot but if you think that you can get more people into Pattern by trying some of the things that you suggested then by all means go for it. J
>>  
>> John Pavlick
>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>  
>> <image001.png>
>> Integrated Development Services
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:25 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> It isn’t about ‘dumbing down’….it is all about making it easier for new guys to actually feel that they can fly the maneuvers.
>> Once they get started…likely they will continue on to upper classes.
>> I don’t see what is so hard to understand about this…..
>> All we have to do is make it hard enough and just keep on doing what we are doing so no one will enter any more.
>> Then the problem will be solved once and for all.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> David Harmon
>> Sperry, OK
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 8:44 PM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> Ken.
>> Great insight. I remember going through many of the same things back in 2004 when I first got into Pattern. I started with a super Kaos 40 that I scratch built in a week. I showed up at my first contest and thought: what the heck happened to Pattern planes – that’s not what  I remember seeing a the last contest I watched (OK it was WAY before 2004 when I went to a pre-turnaround Pattern Contest as a spectator).
>>  
>> It seems like we still have the same “problems”. Hmm.
>>  
>> I’m glad that you agree that dumbing down the sequences is not the answer. I think that the current 401 schedule with the mandatory box exits is fine.
>>  
>> Maybe we can take advantage of this newfangled thing called the internet to spread the word about Pattern.
>>  
>> Surely some of you guys have the skills and resources required to put together a video clip or two…
>>  
>> John Pavlick
>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>  
>> <image001.png>
>> Integrated Development Services
>>  
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ken Dunlap via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:34 PM
>> To: Ed Alt; General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> So, here's a voice from a newbee. only mr. sportsman this year....
>>  
>> I've been building and flying pattern airplanes for about 15 years. All largely self-taught and have come to realize that this was entirely the wrong way to get into pattern flying. Thankfully, a couple of NSRCA guys took me underwing and taught me how to fly and setup an airplane over these last two years. I now realize that you can't just buy an airplane, put it together, and expect to have a properly performing airplane. I think that there are a couple of barriers to bringing on new pilots. 
>>  
>> Problems new pilots face.
>>  
>> 1) New pilots need structured guidance on what kind of airplane they should buy. The airplane needed for sportsman and intermediate is vastly different than the one you need for higher classes. Yet, the commercial message is that if you buy the fancy, hotshot airplane you'll have one that flies great out of the box. Wrong. 
>>  
>> Solution: NSRCA should have a recommend equipment list for sportsman and intermediate. There needs to be a baseline make and model of airplane that new pilots should consider. NSRCA could publish standards and manufacturers that comply could get a "NSRCA seal of approval." 
>>  
>> 2) Pattern type planes are hard to setup properly and even harder to figure out if the plane is flying right. So even if you get an "approved airplane" it's going to fly like a brick without proper setup.
>>   
>> Solution: NSRCA should publish basic education about how to setup control surfaces, find CGs, and most importantly articulate how a properly setup plane should fly. Then, have NSRCA designate formally a cadre of "instructor pilots" who would be available to test fly and set up airplanes that come with the "seal of approval."
>>  
>> 3) Once you have a properly setup airplane, you need to fly it within the box and you need a person to instruct you. How's about using the instructor pilots from #2? Doesn't have to be a full time job.
>>  
>> Solution: NSRCA Districts publish a list of instructor pilots and match them to students wanting to learn to fly.
>>  
>> I am totally opposed to dumbing down the sequences or neutering them. Learning to fly sportsman is a great deal of fun and teaches you all of the fundaments you will need. 
>>  
>> I know some people point to the drones and short attention spans, but I would point to the fact that we don't have a "teach, learn, and fly" infrastructure that captures and holds new fliers. 
>>  
>> Just a couple of thoughts.
>> Ken
>>  
>> Ken Dunlap
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:04 PM
>> To: W Anthony Abdullah; General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> Good suggestions.  It has something a bit in common with the Pattern Primers that we do in D1.
>> 
>> On Sep 20, 2016, at 1:20 PM, W Anthony Abdullah via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>> 
>> David,
>> Your comments below started me thinking about this issue in a new and creative "out of the box" way.
>>  
>> How about this (stick with me now);
>>  
>> What we sorta know:
>> 1. Pattern is more of a participant than spectator sport.
>> 2. The true fun and value can only really be appreciated if you go to a contest
>> 3. Pattern makes you a better pilot
>> 4. Pattern only appeals to a select few in a given club, our growth depends on exposing pattern to them.
>> 5. Human beings are naturally self centered (that's why facebook/my space exists)
>>  
>> Possible approach:
>> Take pattern on the road, to the masses like the traveling air shows of the past.
>>  
>> Say 2017 is the year of the traveling pattern contest. Say in D4 we visit a local active club, for example my club, the Flying Pilgrims of Canton Mi. 2 months prior to the 1 day event we go to the club meeting and present as follows;
>> - want to have fun
>> - get your plane trimmed out and mixed so it will fly its best
>> - improve and test your skills
>> - win a great keepsake and bragging rights
>> - meet great people
>>  
>> Then come to the pattern contest. It would be part fun fly part pattern contest.
>>  
>> Lower classes would vote on and select their own maneuvers, almost like building an unknown. Any plane would be legal. There would be mini contests within the contest (best landing, best roll, best finish, etc), and pretty much any other creative idea to make it fun. We would collect participant data and follow up with them as well as publish a Nats News kind of contest report.
>>  
>> The goal wouldn't be to create a new event, but to share the joys of a contest in a low stress fun environment with enough people that we pick up the 2 or 3 that will be the future if the sport. 
>>  
>> People rob banks because "that's where the money is", if we want to grow, perhaps we have to take pattern where the pilots are, instead of waiting for them to come to us.
>>  
>> Your thoughts?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Sep 20, 2016, at 2:37 AM, David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Even if we are recognized……the interested person is likely going to be a modeler who already is aware of Pattern.
>> I don’t think any assets or time should be wasted in trying to get non-modelers-flyers interested in Pattern.
>> As others have said…it’s booooring…like watching paint dry.
>> There are plenty of modelers who already know how to fly but are never going to try Pattern.
>>  
>> In the past….retaining flyers is a larger problem than attracting new flyers.
>> Over the years the entry count dwindled to what it is now….extremely low.
>>  
>> Why???
>>  
>> There are a lot of reasons but in my opinion….the most prominent are…..
>> Turnaround style of maneuvers.
>> Ever increasing difficulty of maneuvers.
>> Some clubs resistance to an event that locks up the field for 2 days……or even 1 day….for a crummy $50 or so donation to the club from entry fee residue.
>> As others have repeatedly said…..expense. I really don’t buy this because Pattern has ALWAYS been expensive…this is nothing new.
>> If a club flyer is interested enough to try Pattern….he will find a way to justify the expense.
>> The same flyers always win, place or show.
>> After years of trying…many flyers drop out because they know they do not have a chance of taking home any wood….yes, I know, practice more….true to a point.
>> Judging…..well…..we all know about this subject….but I know this causes many flyers to drop out.
>>  
>> All of this is nothing new….it has been hashed over hundreds of times….but as Scott said….nothing keeps on happening.
>> I think that the NSRCA should try something radically new….like change all classes below Masters to non-Turnaround maneuvers.
>> Fly what you bring….up to 30 lbs.
>> Remove all integrated maneuvers from Masters class.
>> Have radically fewer contests in an effort to get the entrant count much higher at each contest as a way to help club members justify a non-flying weekend.
>> Hopefully a large crowd will attract club members to Pattern……6 guys flying for two days ain’t gonna attract anything but hard feelings from club members who just want to fly their stick.
>> If changes similar to the above could be tried….perhaps club members should be allowed to sport fly along with the contestants.
>> This at the least would remove the club members ‘lost weekend’ and perhaps change the attitude of some clubs.
>>  
>>  
>> David Harmon
>> Sperry, OK
>>  
>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:14 PM
>> To: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition
>>  
>> The original reason I posted this is because we need to really "do something" to actually get people to recognize us.  DRL got ESPN and, while there is an obvious attraction to this by young and old, they started from something and somewhere.  Do we need ESPN?  While nice, the answer is no.  I wanted to show all of us that this is what is attracting potential pilots and, for that matter, getting the notoriety.  The discussion is usually "why is this happening" instead of what can we do to "Be like Mike" (in this case) and then actually acting on those ideas.  There have been some pretty good ones in this thread.  Maybe it's time we acted.  Let's not leave it up to someone else to do the acting, each one of us can make a difference in our own way and through our own contacts.
>> 
>> Scott A. McHarg
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>> Texas A&M University
>> PPL - ASEL
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
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