[NSRCA-discussion] Competition

Wed Sep 21 08:05:46 AKDT 2016

There is also another component, and that’s equipment sales.

Heli’s and Quads have something in common that inspires manufacturer sponsorship.  MASSIVE money to be made in spare parts.

Let’s be clear in understanding that parts are where all the industry makes most of the profits.  And well… pattern has two problems there.  Our equipment doesn’t lend itself to a lot of parts purchases both in total usage and in recoverable crashes.   AND… they tend to be flown by some of the better all around competent flyers reducing the overall damage. Short of catastrophic.

MARK ATWOOD
o.  (440) 229-2502
c.  (216) 316-2489
e.  atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>

Paragon Consulting, Inc.
5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
Powering The Digital Experience

On Sep 21, 2016, at 11:54 AM, DaveL322 <DaveL322 at comcast.net<mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net>> wrote:

TOC only survived for as long as it did because Bill Bennett took money out of his pocket every year.

ETOC had a very difficult time obtaining sponsors the last few years it was held.

XFC struggled with finances this year.

These were (are) all invitational events with generally well known pilots......and it was the pilots and the high risk flying that attracted the relatively bigger audiences.  Advertisers and sponsors don't pony up cash without a big audience.

Pattern is not high risk flying....it lacks excitement to the casual observer that will watch -
- an ice skater to see if they crash during a triple jump.
- a skier that might  lose an edge and hit the snow fence at 60 mph.
- a 104" extra on a low KE pass to see if it gets too low and cartwheels down the runway.
- drone racing where they might midair ....or slam into part of the course and tumble spectacularly .

By comparison, missing a 1.5 snap by 10 degrees is boring.

Much of this goes back to the video link I posted before.......pattern planes might be cool....but very few get excited by pattern flying.

Regards,

Dave

Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.

-------- Original message --------
From: John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Date: 9/21/16 10:49 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "'Atwood, Mark'" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>, 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

How about big cash prizes.   The AMA just hosted a drone racing league championship which paid $10,000.    Of course I do not know where the money will come from but cash has a certain quality that brings in the people.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 9:25 AM
To: Larry and Eileen; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

I have to admit this resonates a lot.

I have a local flyer who you would think is ALL IN for pattern.  He flies a full 2 meter plane (Spark Evo) and has a backup 2M.   He practices 3-4 days a week including most Saturdays and Sundays.  Over the past 3 years he’s progressed nicely through the Sportsman, Intermediate and now Advanced sequences.    He currently flies advanced quite competitively (In my opinion).    He ONLY flies pattern.  Every flight is either a complete sequence or working on elements of the sequence with my help.

HE HAS NEVER BEEN TO A CONTEST.

I’ve tried for several years to entice him to participate.  He’s NOT afraid of competition, quite the opposite, he’s a former national level competitive archer.  That’s really his main attraction to pattern…the pursuit of perfection.

But getting away from home for the whole weekend, combined with travel and hotel costs, are more than he’s willing to do.    I’m confident I will eventually get him to a contest, likely one of the closer ones, at least for a day.  But it’s unlikely he’ll ever be “on the tour”.

I’m not sure there’s a solution to this particular problem.  Not without a fundamental change to our execution of the sport.

-M
MARK ATWOOD
o.  (440) 229-2502
c.  (216) 316-2489
e.  atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>

Paragon Consulting, Inc.
5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

Powering The Digital Experience

On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Larry and Eileen via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

Folks,
I see your ongoing concerns about growing the level of participation in Pattern. Let me say that while I fly through the Intermediate sequence with a pattern airplane regularly, I don’t compete.  I am not a pattern flier. The main reason I don’t is because I won’t commit to the time and money needed to travel to a different location in the Pacific Northwest every other weekend through the season. Either my wife gets to live out of a suitcase each Summer, or we are split apart during those times.  Not my idea of retirement.   Quite patting yourselves on the back by stating how hard the pattern sequence is, because that is not the reason few want to get deeply involved in Pattern.  I’ve had several D-8 guys tell me how much they spend attending the scheduled events for a season.  Now I’m not saying “it costs too much” to travel “the circuit”.  We all decide how much is too much.  I am saying when you add together the real total costs, and time requirements (6-8, maybe 10 weekends a season) you reduce the number of people that want to make these types of commitments. Getting someone to fly and practice is not that hard.  We have 3-4 guys doing it here (not “pattern guys” yet) to become better pilots.  Will any of them start flying at other D-8 locations? I doubt it. Takes too much time.  I think “Pattern” is almost a life style.  It is a part of a hobby that requires a large and continuing commitment.  Can anyone join this segment of the RC hobby?  No, not everyone, but many can.  But most aren’t willing to disrupt their families for a hobby to the extent needed to compete.  I know many hobbies have similar time and money costs, and most people won’t get involved in them either.  Similar issues face the thermal duration glider competition folks too.

Sincerely,
Larry Fitch
West Richland, WA

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:44 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

That’s correct John….but back then there were….let’s say….60 entrants to almost every contest.
These days with electric power….noise is no longer a concern.
I think our problem is to a large extent….the difficulty of flying Pattern.
Let’s face it guys….flying Pattern is DIFFICULT.
It takes dedication….you cannot just buy your way into the event with hardware and be successful.

Years ago….there were no ARF’s…..a Pattern style airplane had to be built…..then you had to learn to fly it…if you could get the engine to run.
This was difficult to say the least…..but the Patterns were much easier than today.
Today the situation is totally reversed.
E-power is like a light switch…..it runs perfect every time and when you shut it off there is no maintenance.
There are no Pattern kits that I know of…..so most of us fly ARF airplanes that are better than most guys can build.
Today the emphasis is on flying…..not messing around with the hardware.

This is where the modern day  ‘difficult’ part comes in.
Pattern maneuvers are just too damn difficult for new entrants to make the jump to the event….even if they already sport fly….attracting non-modelers is a non-starter.
This is the main reason that in my opinion…..the NSRCA should make all AMA classes non-turnaround or at least classes lower than Masters.
Pattern has to be made ‘do-able’ for existing flyers…..
We need to show these sport flyers that they can actually fly the maneuvers the first time out and that they can quickly build skill and take home some wood.
That will let many flyers become encouraged enough to get started and stay engaged and perhaps become skilled enough to howl with the big dawgs in FAI.

For the guys that want to have a continuous challenge to their skills….let them fly FAI….that should keep them busy for a while.

We cannot just keep on doing the same old same old…….
Something….anything….needs to be tried to get new entrants and retain existing pilots.

David Harmon
Sperry, OK

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 10:02 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

I always thought the reason why we went to turnaround Pattern in the first place was to reduce our “footprint” and to minimize noise. This was back when we had 60’s and tuned pipes (the good old days) Now that the average Pattern plane makes less noise than a freaking butterfly I guess it could become an option (no turnarounds) but I don’t think that’s necessary.

One thing that we tried in D1 was to have an informal / loosely judged competition with small electric planes. We opened this to ANYONE although I don’t think any nn Pattern pilots ever entered. It was fun but we stopped doing it.

See the REAL “problem” is that, as you said, we’re losing people faster than we’re attracting new ones. Just retaining people is good and certainly necessary but it just stops the bleeding. You DO need to get new people interested but as I’ve said that’s about 1 out of every 10 that has just learned to fly. ☹

John Pavlick
Cell: 203-417-4971

<image001.png>
Integrated Development Services

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:38 AM
To: 'Scott McHarg'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

Even if we are recognized……the interested person is likely going to be a modeler who already is aware of Pattern.
I don’t think any assets or time should be wasted in trying to get non-modelers-flyers interested in Pattern.
As others have said…it’s booooring…like watching paint dry.
There are plenty of modelers who already know how to fly but are never going to try Pattern.

In the past….retaining flyers is a larger problem than attracting new flyers.
Over the years the entry count dwindled to what it is now….extremely low.

Why???

There are a lot of reasons but in my opinion….the most prominent are…..
Turnaround style of maneuvers.
Ever increasing difficulty of maneuvers.
Some clubs resistance to an event that locks up the field for 2 days……or even 1 day….for a crummy $50 or so donation to the club from entry fee residue.
As others have repeatedly said…..expense. I really don’t buy this because Pattern has ALWAYS been expensive…this is nothing new.
If a club flyer is interested enough to try Pattern….he will find a way to justify the expense.
The same flyers always win, place or show.
After years of trying…many flyers drop out because they know they do not have a chance of taking home any wood….yes, I know, practice more….true to a point.
Judging…..well…..we all know about this subject….but I know this causes many flyers to drop out.

All of this is nothing new….it has been hashed over hundreds of times….but as Scott said….nothing keeps on happening.
I think that the NSRCA should try something radically new….like change all classes below Masters to non-Turnaround maneuvers.
Fly what you bring….up to 30 lbs.
Remove all integrated maneuvers from Masters class.
Have radically fewer contests in an effort to get the entrant count much higher at each contest as a way to help club members justify a non-flying weekend.
Hopefully a large crowd will attract club members to Pattern……6 guys flying for two days ain’t gonna attract anything but hard feelings from club members who just want to fly their stick.
If changes similar to the above could be tried….perhaps club members should be allowed to sport fly along with the contestants.
This at the least would remove the club members ‘lost weekend’ and perhaps change the attitude of some clubs.

David Harmon
Sperry, OK

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:14 PM
To: Atwood, Mark <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Competition

The original reason I posted this is because we need to really "do something" to actually get people to recognize us.  DRL got ESPN and, while there is an obvious attraction to this by young and old, they started from something and somewhere.  Do we need ESPN?  While nice, the answer is no.  I wanted to show all of us that this is what is attracting potential pilots and, for that matter, getting the notoriety.  The discussion is usually "why is this happening" instead of what can we do to "Be like Mike" (in this case) and then actually acting on those ideas.  There have been some pretty good ones in this thread.  Maybe it's time we acted.  Let's not leave it up to someone else to do the acting, each one of us can make a difference in our own way and through our own contacts.

Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
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