[NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
Scott McHarg
scmcharg at gmail.com
Sun May 17 12:27:41 AKDT 2015
Hi guys,
Please have a look at
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/ruleproposals/rcaero.aspx, particularly
RCA16-7CP1V2 <https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/RCA16-7CP1V2.pdf> and RCA
16-9 <http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/RCA16-9.pdf>. These are the
proposals that are in front of the AMA Contest Board at present. They
involve both Failsafe and aircraft safety.
Regards,
Scott
*Scott A. McHarg*
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> -1
>
>
>
> Jon
> ------------------------------
> On Sunday, May 17, 2015 ronlock--- via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> +3
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion" <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *To: *"General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent: *Sunday, May 17, 2015 9:57:15 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
> +2
>
> On May 17, 2015, at 8:53 AM, Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 17, 2015, at 9:37 AM, John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Well, I figured I would stay away from this discussion, but it scares
> the crap out of me so maybe I can scare the crap out of someone else and
> take the discussion in a different direction that could produce results…
>
> Rest assured, I won't even debate the merits of widgets…I won't argue in
> favor or against arming switches, failsafes, or anything else…how about
> that?
>
> So, from the perspective of someone who has managed (or tried to
> manage...) risk in professional settings for many years, here is how I see
> this whole debate and what, frankly, scares me…
>
> If you put yourself in the shoes of a spectator reading this year-long
> discussion thread, there is one thing that everyone seems to agree on…that
> an electric pattern plane sitting in the pits by itself is a "loaded gun".
> On that point, there seems to be universal agreement.
> The heated debate in this thread is about how to make that plane safe
> from inadvertent starts and causing damage or injury. I think we all agree
> on that. Simple enough.
>
> Now put yourself in the shoes of the lawyer who is working for the
> spouse of a pattern flier who bled to death before the ambulance could
> arrive at the contest site, because the prop sliced his femoral artery
> while he was squatting in front of the plane, while installing the canopy.
> The lawyer's case is pretty much made for him, isn't it? A known hazard,
> surrounded by 25 pilots (or at least one designated caller) all belonging
> to an organization that have established in 4156 emails that the hazard was
> real and present..all of whom neglected to restrain or mitigate the known
> hazard in any way. All of these people, whilst assuming the pilot had some
> sort of lock-out device in place, made no effort to determine if it was
> adequate or even installed correctly. And even if it had been, all these
> people are involved in a debate about the validity of such devices and have
> been unsuccessful in establishing a universal practice. Yet, they took no
> mitigating actions in the mean time, leading up to the fatality.
>
> So, I was at a contest yesterday, and I was asked to call for a pilot.
> If he asks me prior to putting the battery in the aircraft, I always hold
> the plane while he does it. When I set the plane on the centerline, I
> always look to him to signal me to let it go. When I return the plane to
> the pits, I always inform the pilot verbally that the plane is still armed
> and I wait until he disconnects stuff physically so I can see it, then I
> get up and walk away. I really don't care what failsafe, interlock, or
> widget he uses to disarm the plane electronically…I wanna see some sort of
> physical broken connection before I feel my personal responsibility ends.
> I've had several pilots say to me.."ok, John, I disarmed it already…it's
> OK"… NO, it's not OK! Not until I can see the physical disconnect.
>
> When you ask me to call for you, and you ask me to handle a 5-hp, 80 mph
> meat-cutter in the middle of a crowd of 30 people…I feel deeply responsible
> for IT, for YOU, and for ALL the pilots on the line. I WILL insist on you
> showing me that this thing is physically disarmed, or else you can find
> another caller…it's that simple.
>
> See, I promised I wouldn't discuss widgets…I didn't even tell you how
> mine is set up. But, did I scare the crap out of you?
>
> Out of the box…
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 11:43 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> You need to have the motor at least idling before turning the
> transmitter off. The test should prove that failsafe will stop the motor
> and is not just a throttle hold.
> John
> On 5/16/2015 4:55 PM, David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>
> With as much talk that has gone on and on andonandonandonandon about this
> arming device......puff..puff....not much percentage.
> Especially when it is so easy to check.....
> Before the first takeoff of each pilot on the first round....the helper
> holds the plane off the ground and the pilot turns off the transmitter.
> The judges can verify that the motor does not start.
> Easy....no drama.
>
> Oh wait....this was never done with glow....but I HAVE seen several guys
> chawed up by a howling YS.
> One time a guys airplane chased him in a circle as he was trying to catch
> it...he had one leg in front of one wing and for an old guy he moved pretty
> quick.
> I can't describe how long I laughed about that incident.
>
> In the end....my opinion is checking the fail-safe function should be a must
> at each contest.
>
> David Harmon
> Sperry, OK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On
> Behalf Of Ron Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 4:58 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
> I have seen too many situations where an ID10T error caused serious damage
> that would have been precluded by the use of a shorting plug.
>
> What percentage of pilots’ transmitters would fail the fail safe test?
> Anybody?
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>
> Seems like we have to many people with to much time on their hands sitting
>
> around fantasizing about what might happen if .... Really.... if u cant
> control the aircraft in all aspects then u prolly shouldn't have one... Let
> alone legislate what i need to be doing with mine...
>
> Gary
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Code doesn't apply to model airplanes. Cars do not disconnect the
>
> battery, except on race cars with a disconnect switch in case of a wreck.
> Normal road cars do not, and modern cars leave a lot of things connected
> when the ignition is off. A lot of cars have underhood fans that run for
> awhile after the car is shut off.
>
> If this was a big issue, AMA would address it with all model aircraft,
>
> not just pattern. Electric is common in helis, controline, etc. We are over
> killing this something awful.
>
> Jon
>
>
> On May 16, 2015 2:11 PM, Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> the ignition switch.
>
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com> <vincebrc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Del R via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> The nice thing about being brought up around GUNS.. It teaches
> people to respect it always as though it is loaded and cocked
> ready to deliver its physical life altering energy!!!.. < tic >
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Cook via NSRCA-discussion
> To: Jim Woodward ; General pattern discussion
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
> Just to open the can of worms from the other end.
> Now that I have seen the damage a runaway can do to a pool table even
>
> with an external arming device, I have begun to make it a common practice to
> remove the prop from the electric planes any time I am not at the field
> flying. Store the ammunition and the pin under two different locks. How easy
> is it to be careless in the shop or transporting a plane. This thread could
> just explode with stories of mishaps we have made or come way too close to.
>
> You just can't be too carful with these things!!!
> DC
>
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jim Woodward via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> ... Going electric induces a mental physchosis that requires
> everyone else to switch, then go and change the rules for glow
> :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 16, 2015, at 9:38 AM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
>
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> I think the YS guys should have their caller remove the fuel tank
>
> and glow plug before picking up the plane and exiting the runway . . .
>
> From: NSRCA-discussion
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of
> precisionaero via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 8:38 AM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> I think we should reconfigure a YS engine to drive a generator to
>
> supply electricity to the electric motor.
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
>
> Date:05/16/2015 09:31 (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: General pattern discussion , ronlock at comcast.net, David
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> I think we're all in agreement, which is why the rules proposal we
>
> put forth requires a *physical* break in the circuit!
>
> Sent from Outlook
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:16 AM -0700, "ronlock--- via
>
> NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> I'm in agreement.
>
> Ron Lockhart
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: "David via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 1:14:21 AM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>
>
>
> I'm not trying to bring up a sore subject but this has been
>
> bugging me since it was up a while back. I am the senior electronics
> technician in the plasma physics department at the University of Wisconsin.
> About a third of what I do is make interlock circuits for the Madison
> Symmetric Torus. I know that the best way of keeping things safe is to
> remove the potential energy from a circuit to keep bad things from
> happening. The problem with depending on a circuit such as the emcotec type
> of disconnect or to just relying solely on the radio and ESC to keep things
> safe is failure modes. You can plan for all different failure types but to
> make it a circuit that isn't a lead brick being added to the plane there are
> compromises that have to be made. This leads to designing systems that may
> deal with only the most common types of failures. For example most common
> diodes and tantalum capacitors usually fail in a shorted mode, but not
> always. Many carbon resistors will decrease in résistance just prior to
> opening up. You get the idea, there are just so many possibilities and
> combinations that in my opinion the only real way to safe a power system is
> to disconnect the energy source. Ok, now I feel better that I said
> something.
>
> David
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
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