[NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21

Tue Dec 15 08:56:56 AKST 2015

Heady stuff Ed!  Due process be dammed; off with my head LOL!

What I think is interesting about how this thread is evolving is that both individuals and clubs have a choice to make.

For individuals: to register or not?  A personal matter, just between each one of us and our regulator.  I will not ask you what you plan to do, your business.

For clubs: to let registration be a personal matter between individuals and the regulator; or to intervene, demanding proof of registration for membership?

While I favor John Ford’s approach to compliance where my registration number will be my own private business; I can see where clubs will want it too if they believe that proof of registration is important to securing their future for the greater good of club members.  Both choices have merits & risks, right?

> On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dana
> 
> The identity theft risk with the FAA number is that if someone places your number on their model and causes property damage or injuries or worse, then the FAA and law enforcement are coming down on your head. 
> 
> On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:34 AM, Dana Beaton <danamaenia at me.com <mailto:danamaenia at me.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Ed, Andy and I joined Buc-Le in Quakertown this week since Farview closed (due to excess turbine traffic outraging the neighbors, having nothing to do with drones or nefarious non-members).  Buc-Le requires that club membership cards, or AMA cards for guests, be placed on the board while we fly.  Many clubs have a system like this.  The LVRCS still does, but we now permit members to wear their membership cards if they don’t want to use the board.  Someone who wants to borrow an identity, copy or steal an AMA card, can just stroll up to the box: No need for someone to help one of us find parts to a downed model, it’s that simple today to grab a name and number of someone who is reputable in the hobby to hide behind.  I have not heard of this happeningso it seems so unlikely, even now with registration coming down the pike.
>> 
>> In the coming compliance environment, the new normal for AMA members, what may mar our hobby is reputable hobbyist pilots NOT registering?  I get that a lot of us are angry at what has transpired, but let’s think through the more probable scenarios and avoid needless troubles for ourselves and clubs.
>> 
>> Decades ago when I was training for my Private Pilot ticket we still had the large registration numbers, N numbers, on general aviation planes.  Every instructor had stories about the one little old lady who called the police every time she saw a low flying aircraft overhead.  While the pilot in question may have been in fact at a legal altitude/separation per the FARs, that did not stop those nuisance calls.  When the police came to ask around in these stories, nothing ever came of the complaints as the pilots, operators, etc. all had their documents in order and were flying responsibly.  Just crank calls that burdened the cops, resulting no problems for the flight school.  What I am getting at is if and when our neighbor calls around about activity at our clubs, should the locals come around asking, we will have all our documents in order.  If asked, like John suggests, we can produce registration.  End of story.  
>> 
>> OTOH, if neighbors complain and local authorities cannot establish that club members are operating within guidelines, there could be more questions than the situation would otherwise merit.  That is the more likely scenario in my mind than bad actors stealing my identity to fly drones badly.  We might want to worry more about the mundane stuff like that than the more elaborate scenarios?
>> 
>> Respectfully/anonymously (LOL),
>> Dana
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> That should work for the most part.  Don't ever let anyone help you look for a lost/crashed model I guess.  There are still complications for various scenarios, such as for anyone who wants to teach a student to fly etc.  
>>> 
>>> From: jsf106 at gmail.com <mailto:jsf106 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
>>> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:37:04 -0500
>>> CC: ed_alt at hotmail.com <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
>>> To: mark.grabowski at comcast.net <mailto:mark.grabowski at comcast.net>; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> 
>>> On my plane, the number will be accessible without tools, per the rule, but unless asked by an FAA official, I'm not offering to show where it is to anyone. 
>>> I need to have my registration with me, and I will, but no one gets to see it. As the rule says, this is between me and the FAA. 
>>> 
>>> Not up to the clubs or the AMA to police individuals on behalf of the FAA, so identity theft should not be a problem. 
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Comcast via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Been thinking the very same thing. Someone steals a user number, does something stupid and then there's a knock at my door. Without a great alibi what are you gonna do???
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2015, at 5:23 AM, Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Speaking of use cases, perhaps I missed it in the flurry of emails yesterday, but has anyone thought about the identity theft risk that the FAA is creating?  By registering the pilot and not having unique identification numbers for each model that are assigned to an owner, it sets up the scenario for anyone else to use your number on their model and cause virtually unlimited problems for you, anywhere, anytime.  To help reduce this risk, at the very least, the numbers would have to be provided by the FAA with some sort of marking, holography, whatever to at least raise the difficulty of identity theft from zero to something above zero.  You can apparently use a felt marker to scribble your own numbers as it stands now. 
>>> 
>>> Better yet, from an identity theft perspective at least, there should be unique numbers for each model provided to the owner.  This, of course would drive costs way up and incur delays.  
>>> 
>>> We should put the central planners in charge of every aspect of our lives now, should we not?  They've really shown their true colors on this one.  Incompetent boobs, every last one of them.
>>> 
>>> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:53:22 -0800
>>> To: acornacchione at hotmail.com <mailto:acornacchione at hotmail.com>; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
>>> From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> 
>>> Honestly, I think thats one of the use-cases the FAA didn't think through real well...
>>> 
>>> My belief is that this whole thing is about creating a sense of accountability for the "rogue" users (I'm not willing to give them the term pilot because they don't deserve it) who do stupid shit like flying around a wildfire and preventing Calfire airborne response for 20+ minutes, etc.  It's about dealing with the anti-AMA guys who fly 120+mph EDFs weighing 6+ lbs over an active soccer game at a local park, it's about dealing with the dipshits who fly their drone on the takeoff/approach path of an active full scale airport in hopes of "cool footage".  The AMA field flyers are the least of the FAA's worries and we're blowing it out of proportion.  Yes, it's a stupid regulation, but let's comply where we can and show ourselves to be the responsible modelers the AMA says we are.
>>> 
>>> For the foreign guys, first of all, sorry for the needless red tape (though I think a similar thing is coming for the BMFA guys in the UK and it would not surprise me to see a more sensible version of this from the Canadian guys).  But if I were CD'ing a contest and some guys came down from the Great White North, I'd happily hook them up with some temporary form of my own registration # to put in their planes for the purposes of flying at the contest because I know them to be responsible pilots.
>>> 
>>> Peter+
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Anthony Cornacchione via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> Legit question with an unknown answer:  how will this impact international (IMAC Worlds in Muncie 2018) NATS with international competitors (NATS News this year had a nice write up) and our local contests which have had the occasional Canadian wander south?
>>> 
>>> On Dec 14, 2015, at 6:33 PM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Boaters register their pleasure craft, fishermen & hunters buy licenses, some folks even register their firearms! So what? Are we going to give up our hobby just because of a tiny pice of red tape? Nope! Just keep flying. The bad actors who misuse their aircraft will run afoul local authorities sure enough, that's their problem, not ours.  We need to continue to set the good example though our good flying.  Good flying will carry the day.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>> On Dec 14, 2015, at 6:25 PM, Dave Burton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> So, just shut up and drink the Kool-Aid?
>>>  
>>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 6:15 PM
>>> To: Atwood, Mark; General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
>>>  
>>> Yep.... yep... yep.
>>>  
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> Hasn’t that private information ship already sailed?  We all register cars and think nothing of it.  Heck, we even took classes, got educated, and were tested for a license before we could own or operate a car and we have to renew that every four years and prove we’re still physically capable (minimal proof admittedly).  Personally not sure a gun should be much different but don’t want to start that discussion (especially since I’m generally pro gun…just not pro redneck hill jack survivalist conspiracy theorist) but not registering to fly airplanes?  Really?    We trade more info internationally downloading a Facebook app.    Also, we’re already registered… just with the AMA, not the USA.  And yes, the AMA is trying to make that our ONLY registration, but that’s just a proposal at this point.   
>>>  
>>> Guys… we already do ALL of this.  Our AMA # is on the plane, we follow safety rules, blah blah blah.  This is a very minor inconvenience and if the AMA proposal to use our AMA# for our registration number it won’t even be that.  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> On Dec 14, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Dave Burton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Now is the time for massive civil disobedience!
>>> I don't think I'd register my planes any more than I'd register my guns.
>>> Too bad AMA has no clout like the NRA.
>>> Dave
>>>  
>>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion
>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 1:23 PM
>>> To: Scott McHarg; General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
>>>  
>>> Morons at work….
>>>  
>>> -           Robert Beaubien
>>> -           DronePlastics.com <http://droneplastics.com/>
>>>  
>>> “Dear Algebra, Please stop asking us to find your X.  She's never coming back and don't ask Y.”
>>>  
>>> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 11:05 AM
>>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAA Registration begins December 21
>>>  
>>> Well, here it is boys and girls.  It's official and starts next Monday.  The link is for the FAQ's of what's happening. 
>>>  
>>>  You only have to register once and you don't have to individually register all of your models.
>>> You must be able to provide proof of registration and have it on you when flying.
>>> You must have your Registration # (not going to be a N number) in your airplane where it is legible and accessible without the use of tools (aka under your canopy).  
>>> If you sell a model, you should update your records. (I don't completely understand this if we aren't registering all of our models individually but, OK)
>>> Registration is $5 but you'll get that back if you register in the first 30 days, I believe.
>>>  
>>> Have a look at the link and prepare to be upset.....
>>>  
>>> http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/ <http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/>
>>>  
>>> Scott A. McHarg
>>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>> Texas A&M University
>>> PPL - ASEL
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>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>>> 
>>> 
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