[NSRCA-discussion] Deicing fluids....
Pedro Luzuriaga
p.luzuriaga at yahoo.com
Sun Dec 6 14:10:52 AKST 2015
Having used both Type I and IV, there are also Type II and III, they are for ground use only.
Type I,(usually orange) is a deice fluid applied heated or unheated to remove ice accumulations.
Type IV, (usually bright green) is an anti-ice fluid to prevent further accumulation by absorbing moisture and preventing it from freezing. Type IV is designed to be shed as the aircraft is accelerated for takeoff, usually at a design speed of 100 Knots.
Type III is designed for aircraft with lower rotation speeds, around 80 Knots.
None of the fluid is "supposed" to stick, but residue is always left behind. In flight anti-icing is provided by thermal (heated leading edges), chemical (the weeping wing concept), or mechanical (inflatable pneumatic leading edges) methods.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots (chuenkan at comcast.net)
2. Re: Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots (Scott Smith)
3. Re: Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots (Ron Hansen)
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 00:25:50 +0000 (UTC)
From: chuenkan at comcast.net
To: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com>, nsrca-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
Message-ID:
<2011982269.3225803.1449361550792.JavaMail.zimbra at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Ron, My daughter works for American/US Airways (now "American" only) @ TYS (Knoxville, TN, used to work @ CLT (Charlotte, NC). She is providing the answers I'm typing in for you.
Her answers are in bold below...
Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary
AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member
(865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c
----- Original Message -----
I have a couple of questions regarding de-icing of full scale commercial jets. I?m trying to prep for being an expert witness on an environmental matter related to de-icing.
Is the purpose of the de-icing fluid just to knock off the ice prior to take off or is it also intended to remain on the plane during flight?
Yes, both; and Type I fluid is used to knock chunks of ice off @ high pressure, Type IV is used to inhibit ice accumulation during flight. (She may h ave the numbers reversed, but doesn't think so.)
Do commercial jets contain any other mechanism for preventing or stopping ice buildup during flight (e.g., heating elements)?
Yes, there are heating elements on the wing leading edge. (And possibly the tail.)
I always assumed that all de-icing activities occur out in the open. However, I?ve heard some airports now do this within enclosures. Are these enclosures two side (i.e., the plane pulls straight in one side of the enclosure and straight out the other side of the enclosure without raising and lowering doors on the entrance and exit?
Sharon has never seen them de-iced in an enclosure, only in the open over a drain-she does not know. The de-icing fluid is not toxic -- workers can inhale & taste it with impunity. They wear no protective (from the fluid) clothing or equipment.
Any other details you can provide me would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ron
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 19:30:32 -0500
From: Scott Smith <vze23c3q at gmail.com>
To: Daniel Dupont <dansy44 at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
Message-ID:
<CABcj=iWfWycc2qMEtr4J8_EQBuNYhLpMWkXO8Wdo5ftriyh8eA at mail.gmail.com>
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A little late to the party but from my A&P days...
De-Icer - Removes accumulated ice (i.e. pneumatic boots on leading edges)
Anti-Ice - Prevents accumulation (i.e. bleed air or weeping alcohol)
De-Icing Fluid (as in on the tarmac) is heated fluid that will melt any
accumulation and slow any build-up before departure on the horizontal
surfaces. Does nothing once the aircraft is airborne.
Electric boots on the props are referred to as de-ice but can also serve as
anti-ice. Pneumatic de-icers are problematic because moisture can build up
in the lines then freeze (just when you needed them most!) The boots are
held tight to the L/E by vacuum and any holes in the boot allow water to
enter when flying through precipitation.
On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Daniel Dupont via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> De-icer Booth would be on smaller airplanes?.like king air?size, was also
> used a lot in 50?s design, its a very limited system in term of how much
> ice it can take?..
>
> Since it has to accumulate ice before engaging it?.there?s a risk of roll
> off?..meaning the ice might get being the booth if the precipitation are
> too much for the system to handle, the bleed air is the prefer method, will
> handle a lot of ice?.
>
> Daniel iMac
>
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Randy Forbus via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Reply-To: Randy Forbus <Rforbus at hotmail.com>, General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 14:21
> To: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com>, General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
>
> Most all commercial aircraft have wing deice system a heated leading edge
> that works off bleed air,or deice boots, which inflates to break off any
> ice build up
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 5, 2015 7:08 PM
> *To:* NSCRA Discussion List
> *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
>
>
> I have a couple of questions regarding de-icing of full scale commercial
> jets. I?m trying to prep for being an expert witness on an environmental
> matter related to de-icing.
>
>
>
> Is the purpose of the de-icing fluid just to knock off the ice prior to
> take off or is it also intended to remain on the plane during flight?
>
>
>
> Do commercial jets contain any other mechanism for preventing or stopping
> ice buildup during flight (e.g., heating elements)?
>
>
>
> I always assumed that all de-icing activities occur out in the open.
> However, I?ve heard some airports now do this within enclosures. Are these
> enclosures two side (i.e., the plane pulls straight in one side of the
> enclosure and straight out the other side of the enclosure without raising
> and lowering doors on the entrance and exit?
>
>
>
> Any other details you can provide me would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 12676 (20151205) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> <http://www.eset.com/>
> ESET | Antivirus, Internet Security Software & Virus ...
> ESET provides award-winning antivirus and security software trusted by
> over 100 million users worldwide.
> Read more... <http://www.eset.com/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing
> list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:36:42 -0500
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: <chuenkan at comcast.net>, "'nsrca-discussion'"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
Message-ID: <003901d13044$4a0eac40$de2c04c0$@wowway.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thank you all for the info.
Very helpful
From: chuenkan at comcast.net [mailto:chuenkan at comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 8:49 PM
To: Ron Hansen; nsrca-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Attention Commercial Full Scale Pilots
Ron,
Attached is the Dow Chemical specs sheet for (some) de-icing liquid. Hope
this helps you...
Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary
AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member
(865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c
_____
I have a couple of questions regarding de-icing of full scale commercial
jets. I'm trying to prep for being an expert witness on an environmental
matter related to de-icing.
Is the purpose of the de-icing fluid just to knock off the ice prior to take
off or is it also intended to remain on the plane during flight?
Do commercial jets contain any other mechanism for preventing or stopping
ice buildup during flight (e.g., heating elements)?
I always assumed that all de-icing activities occur out in the open.
However, I've heard some airports now do this within enclosures. Are these
enclosures two side (i.e., the plane pulls straight in one side of the
enclosure and straight out the other side of the enclosure without raising
and lowering doors on the entrance and exit?
Any other details you can provide me would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ron
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 12676 (20151205) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 12679 (20151206) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 12679 (20151206) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
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