[NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA website...

Tue Apr 29 11:14:45 AKDT 2014

and  data we are picking may not be the right data or we are throwing away
good data and possibly picking the wrong competitor,,,

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del R
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:47 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA
website...

Mike.. Over the years many of the negative down sides have been repeatedly
pointed out regarding using the current system and while I truly concur with
your opinion the ruling part sees nothing wrong with throwing away some
rounds which is against the very attribute they contend to support. If the
overall best average pilot shows up each round and does their best then they
would secure their place. Belittling any judges work manning the chair by
throwing away their work is counter-productive to the hard work they put in
with their calibrated eyeballs. It is all about what is an acceptable
compromise. In a perfect world all judges would be focused and catch every
zero but when the maneuvers are as complex as they have become it is a
daunting task for new pilots to master let alone feel comfortable about
advancing to the point they have to man the chair to compete.  The sport has
become so complex one needs professional caller and when you have maintaince
issues to tend to while having to go man the chair makes it less than
desirable. Maybe that is why many are glad to have the choice of throwing
one of their flights away. 

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Dr. Michael Harrison, DDS <mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>  

To: 'General pattern discussion' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:51 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA
website...

My 2-1=1 cents,  There is no perfect scoring system.  The system used at
bakersfield regresses back to winning with a " BarnBurner score" on the last
flight of the contest and this suffers the dilemma of becoming the
popularity contest we used to deal with.  Normalizing normally rewards the
consistently best pilot, however there are always exceptions and extreme
examples to the contrary.  This holds true in all competitive events of any
type.  

I believe where we fall short today is that we throw away too much data.
Examples would be dropping the high and low score of each flight, dropping
the worst flight at a contest, counting only 4 flights of contests with more
than 4 flights, throwing away previous flights at major events, ie.
eliminating the prelims scores at major events, etc.

With the reliability of all our equipment and the technology present today,
we should do more to retain more of the judging we have done.

More and more is being done via various methods(TBL, dropping high and low
scores, dropping worst flights, etc) to create an "average score" which is
erroneously considered the best most fair score.  I believe this is a
mistake.  I believe we should keep the high and low scores, the worst
flights, whatever.  We don't really have the statistical data to do TBL
properly, in my opinion, it should be eliminated.  It definitely has an
adverse affect on the judges ability to do his job.  

I believe we should work to keep much more data.  I believe we can create
systems to do that.  

On another note, I believe this is one really good contest, would love to
have been there.  Probably the premier "local" contest of the nation.

Mike 

On Apr 29, 2014, at 8:19 AM, ronlock at comcast.net wrote

Ron Lockhart

  _____  

From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 2:01:04 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on the
NSRCA        website...

It does not normalize the rounds.  One round can be worth more than another.
Easy vs hard judges, calm vs windy conditions, etc.  Especially with throw
aways it's critical that all the round have the same "value".  

That said, I can see an interest in normalizing to the average score, rather
than to the top score.  It minimizes some of the variance when a key flyer
doesn't fly the round either due to a problem or simply choosing not to fly
after winning the first 4 rounds.  Particularly in that last scenario, it
makes the remaining rounds much more valuable to the 2nd and 3rd place
flyers.  

Sent from my average intelligence  phone

On Apr 28, 2014, at 8:27 PM, "Peter Vogel" <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, it's normalization of a sort, in that it's a percentage of perfect
within each class, so a 984 in Intermediate and a 984 in Sportsman mean the
same thing, you flew 98.4% of the perfect score (no, I haven't seen a score
that high! :-)  

Overall though, I don't like the dynamic of it.  It's very clear when you
have a highly critical set of judges, everyone pretty much drops that round.
Normalization to best is definitely a superior way for people to see how
they are doing relative to the best pilot in the round for a particular set
of judges, regardless of how critical (or not) they happen to be.  An
interesting experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it for future contests.

Peter+

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:08 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:

It is a misnomer to call what was used normalization. It is actually a
reversion to the pre-normalization scoring scheme of yesteryear. The only
difference from the old days is that by "normalizing" to a perfect score,
you can immediately see the average raw score per maneuver.
John

On 4/28/2014 6:15 PM, Anthony Romano wrote:

So why the change in normalization?

Anthony

  _____  

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:04:28 -0700
From: vogel.peter at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on the NSRCA
website...

Final data from the contest is also available here:

http://www.patternscoring.com/560, the per-contestant report is considerably
richer than what you get on nsrca.us <http://nsrca.us/> 

I also just completed an analysis of what would have happened if we'd
normalized to best instead of to perfect, the only class where it would have
made a difference in final placement was FAI Silver (MP15) where Jon's win
in one round and 2nd place rounds were closer to Sean's scores than Dale's
2nd place rounds would have put him about 30 points over Dale.

Peter+

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:

That's not the scoring program, the XML says "Prelim", "1", "2" for the
flight number, but the web server's transformation is showing it as "1", "2"
and "0".

Peter+

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Derek Koopowitz<derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
wrote:

Everyone,

The NSRCA website is back up and running again... our host was doing some
maintenance on the server.  The scores for the Bakersfield contest have been
posted and just to let everyone know...

1.  Every score is normalized to PERFECT, not to best pilot

2.  Every AMA class flew 2 final rounds on Sunday using unknowns

3.  Best 3 of 4 prelim rounds were AVERAGED to produce a SINGLE round score
to carry over into the finals.

4.  Best 2 of 3 (prelim carry over + 2 final rounds = 3) count for the final
score.

In FAI F, Prelim carry over is shown as Round 1, Round 2 is first finals
round, and round 3 is the 2nd final round -- for some reason the scoring
program is showing that as round 0.

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