[NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA website...

Tue Apr 29 09:46:49 AKDT 2014

Mike.. Over the years many of the negative down sides have been repeatedly pointed out regarding using the current system and while I truly concur with your opinion the ruling part sees nothing wrong with throwing away some rounds which is against the very attribute they contend to support. If the overall best average pilot shows up each round and does their best then they would secure their place. Belittling any judges work manning the chair by throwing away their work is counter-productive to the hard work they put in with their calibrated eyeballs. It is all about what is an acceptable compromise. In a perfect world all judges would be focused and catch every zero but when the maneuvers are as complex as they have become it is a daunting task for new pilots to master let alone feel comfortable about advancing to the point they have to man the chair to compete.  The sport has become so complex one needs professional caller and when you have maintaince issues to tend to while having to go man the chair makes it less than desirable. Maybe that is why many are glad to have the choice of throwing one of their flights away. 

    Del
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dr. Michael Harrison, DDS 
  To: 'General pattern discussion' 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA website...

  My 2-1=1 cents,  There is no perfect scoring system.  The system used at bakersfield regresses back to winning with a " BarnBurner score" on the last flight of the contest and this suffers the dilemma of becoming the popularity contest we used to deal with.  Normalizing normally rewards the consistently best pilot, however there are always exceptions and extreme examples to the contrary.  This holds true in all competitive events of any type.  

  I believe where we fall short today is that we throw away too much data.  Examples would be dropping the high and low score of each flight, dropping the worst flight at a contest, counting only 4 flights of contests with more than 4 flights, throwing away previous flights at major events, ie.  eliminating the prelims scores at major events, etc.

  With the reliability of all our equipment and the technology present today, we should do more to retain more of the judging we have done.

  More and more is being done via various methods(TBL, dropping high and low scores, dropping worst flights, etc) to create an "average score" which is erroneously considered the best most fair score.  I believe this is a mistake.  I believe we should keep the high and low scores, the worst flights, whatever.  We don't really have the statistical data to do TBL properly, in my opinion, it should be eliminated.  It definitely has an adverse affect on the judges ability to do his job.  

  I believe we should work to keep much more data.  I believe we can create systems to do that.  

  On another note, I believe this is one really good contest, would love to have been there.  Probably the premier "local" contest of the nation.

  Mike 

  On Apr 29, 2014, at 8:19 AM, ronlock at comcast.net wrote

  Ron Lockhart

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
  To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 2:01:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on the        NSRCA        website...

  It does not normalize the rounds.  One round can be worth more than another.  Easy vs hard judges, calm vs windy conditions, etc.  Especially with throw aways it's critical that all the round have the same "value".  

  That said, I can see an interest in normalizing to the average score, rather than to the top score.  It minimizes some of the variance when a key flyer doesn't fly the round either due to a problem or simply choosing not to fly after winning the first 4 rounds.  Particularly in that last scenario, it makes the remaining rounds much more valuable to the 2nd and 3rd place flyers.  

  Sent from my average intelligence  phone

  On Apr 28, 2014, at 8:27 PM, "Peter Vogel" <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:

    Well, it's normalization of a sort, in that it's a percentage of perfect within each class, so a 984 in Intermediate and a 984 in Sportsman mean the same thing, you flew 98.4% of the perfect score (no, I haven't seen a score that high! :-)  

    Overall though, I don't like the dynamic of it.  It's very clear when you have a highly critical set of judges, everyone pretty much drops that round.  Normalization to best is definitely a superior way for people to see how they are doing relative to the best pilot in the round for a particular set of judges, regardless of how critical (or not) they happen to be.  An interesting experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it for future contests.

    Peter+

    On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:08 PM, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:

    It is a misnomer to call what was used normalization. It is actually a reversion to the pre-normalization scoring scheme of yesteryear. The only difference from the old days is that by "normalizing" to a perfect score, you can immediately see the average raw score per maneuver.
    John

    On 4/28/2014 6:15 PM, Anthony Romano wrote:

      So why the change in normalization?

      Anthony

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:04:28 -0700
      From: vogel.peter at gmail.com
      To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on the NSRCA website...

      Final data from the contest is also available here:

      http://www.patternscoring.com/560, the per-contestant report is considerably richer than what you get on nsrca.us

      I also just completed an analysis of what would have happened if we'd normalized to best instead of to perfect, the only class where it would have made a difference in final placement was FAI Silver (MP15) where Jon's win in one round and 2nd place rounds were closer to Sean's scores than Dale's 2nd place rounds would have put him about 30 points over Dale.

      Peter+

      On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:

      That's not the scoring program, the XML says "Prelim", "1", "2" for the flight number, but the web server's transformation is showing it as "1", "2" and "0".

      Peter+

      On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Derek Koopowitz<derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> wrote:

        Everyone,

        The NSRCA website is back up and running again... our host was doing some maintenance on the server.  The scores for the Bakersfield contest have been posted and just to let everyone know...

        1.  Every score is normalized to PERFECT, not to best pilot

        2.  Every AMA class flew 2 final rounds on Sunday using unknowns

        3.  Best 3 of 4 prelim rounds were AVERAGED to produce a SINGLE round score to carry over into the finals.

        4.  Best 2 of 3 (prelim carry over + 2 final rounds = 3) count for the final score.

        In FAI F, Prelim carry over is shown as Round 1, Round 2 is first finals round, and round 3 is the 2nd final round -- for some reason the scoring program is showing that as round 0.

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      Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training

      Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

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      Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training

      Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

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