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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Mike.. Over the years many of the
negative down sides have been repeatedly pointed out regarding using the current
system and while I truly concur with your opinion the ruling part sees nothing
wrong with throwing away some rounds which is against the very attribute they
contend to support. If the overall best average pilot shows up each round and
does their best then they would secure their place. Belittling any judges work
manning the chair by throwing away their work is counter-productive to the hard
work they put in with their calibrated eyeballs. It is all about what is an
acceptable compromise. In a perfect world all judges would be focused and catch
every zero but when the maneuvers are as complex as they have become it is a
daunting task for new pilots to master let alone feel comfortable about
advancing to the point they have to man the chair to compete. The sport
has become so complex one needs professional caller and when you have maintaince
issues to tend to while having to go man the chair makes it less than desirable.
Maybe that is why many are glad to have the choice of throwing one of their
flights away. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial> Del</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drmikedds@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net">Dr.
Michael Harrison, DDS</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern
discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:51
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Bakersfield Bash scores areon the NSRCA website...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">My
2-1=1 cents, There is no perfect scoring system. The system used
at bakersfield regresses back to winning with a " BarnBurner score" on the
last flight of the contest and this suffers the dilemma of becoming the
popularity contest we used to deal with. Normalizing normally rewards
the consistently best pilot, however there are always exceptions and extreme
examples to the contrary. This holds true in all competitive events of
any type. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
believe where we fall short today is that we throw away too much data.
Examples would be dropping the high and low score of each flight,
dropping the worst flight at a contest, counting only 4 flights of contests
with more than 4 flights, throwing away previous flights at major events,
ie. eliminating the prelims scores at major events,
etc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">With
the reliability of all our equipment and the technology present today, we
should do more to retain more of the judging we have
done.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">More
and more is being done via various methods(TBL, dropping high and low scores,
dropping worst flights, etc) to create an "average score" which is erroneously
considered the best most fair score. I believe this is a mistake.
I believe we should keep the high and low scores, the worst flights,
whatever. We don't really have the statistical data to do TBL properly,
in my opinion, it should be eliminated. It definitely has an adverse
affect on the judges ability to do his job. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
believe we should work to keep much more data. I believe we can create
systems to do that. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">On
another note, I believe this is one really good contest, would love to have
been there. Probably the premier "local" contest of the
nation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Apr 29, 2014, at 8:19 AM, <A
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</A>
wrote<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ron
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
<HR id=zwchr align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">"Mark Atwood" <<A
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">atwoodm@paragon-inc.com</A>><BR><B>To:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>"General pattern discussion"
<<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Tuesday, April 29, 2014 2:01:04
AM<BR><B>Subject:<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on
the NSRCA website...<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It does not
normalize the rounds. One round can be worth more than another.
Easy vs hard judges, calm vs windy conditions, etc. Especially
with throw aways it's critical that all the round have the same "value".
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">That said,
I can see an interest in normalizing to the average score, rather than to the
top score. It minimizes some of the variance when a key flyer doesn't
fly the round either due to a problem or simply choosing not to fly after
winning the first 4 rounds. Particularly in that last scenario, it makes
the remaining rounds much more valuable to the 2nd and 3rd place flyers.
<BR><BR>Sent from my average intelligence
phone<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><BR>On Apr 28, 2014, at 8:27 PM,
"Peter Vogel" <<A href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com"
target=_blank>vogel.peter@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Well,
it's normalization of a sort, in that it's a percentage of perfect within
each class, so a 984 in Intermediate and a 984 in Sportsman mean the same
thing, you flew 98.4% of the perfect score (no, I haven't seen a score that
high! :-) <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Overall
though, I don't like the dynamic of it. It's very clear when you have
a highly critical set of judges, everyone pretty much drops that round.
Normalization to best is definitely a superior way for people to see
how they are doing relative to the best pilot in the round for a particular
set of judges, regardless of how critical (or not) they happen to be.
An interesting experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it for future
contests.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Peter+<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">On Mon,
Apr 28, 2014 at 7:08 PM, John Gayer<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><<A
href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"
target=_blank>jgghome@comcast.net</A>><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It is a
misnomer to call what was used normalization. It is actually a reversion to
the pre-normalization scoring scheme of yesteryear. The only difference from
the old days is that by "normalizing" to a perfect score, you can
immediately see the average raw score per maneuver.<SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"><BR><SPAN
class=hoenzb>John</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">On
4/28/2014 6:15 PM, Anthony Romano wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So why
the change in normalization?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Anthony<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:04:28
-0700<BR>From:<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com"
target=_blank>vogel.peter@gmail.com</A><BR>To:<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Bakersfield Bash scores are on the NSRCA
website...<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Final
data from the contest is also available here:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.patternscoring.com/560"
target=_blank>http://www.patternscoring.com/560</A>, the per-contestant
report is considerably richer than what you get on<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A href="http://nsrca.us/"
target=_blank>nsrca.us</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I also
just completed an analysis of what would have happened if we'd normalized
to best instead of to perfect, the only class where it would have made a
difference in final placement was FAI Silver (MP15) where Jon's win in one
round and 2nd place rounds were closer to Sean's scores than Dale's 2nd
place rounds would have put him about 30 points over
Dale.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Peter+<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">On Mon,
Apr 28, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Vogel<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><<A
href="mailto:vogel.peter@gmail.com"
target=_blank>vogel.peter@gmail.com</A>><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">That's
not the scoring program, the XML says "Prelim", "1", "2" for the flight
number, but the web server's transformation is showing it as "1", "2" and
"0".<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Peter+<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">On Mon,
Apr 28, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Derek Koopowitz<<A
href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com"
target=_blank>derekkoopowitz@gmail.com</A>><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Everyone,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The
NSRCA website is back up and running again... our host was doing some
maintenance on the server. The scores for the Bakersfield contest
have been posted and just to let everyone
know...<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1.
Every score is normalized to PERFECT, not to best
pilot<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2.
Every AMA class flew 2 final rounds on Sunday using
unknowns<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. Best
3 of 4 prelim rounds were AVERAGED to produce a SINGLE round score to
carry over into the finals.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">4. Best
2 of 3 (prelim carry over + 2 final rounds = 3) count for the final
score.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In FAI F,
Prelim carry over is shown as Round 1, Round 2 is first finals round,
and round 3 is the 2nd final round -- for some reason the scoring
program is showing that as round
0.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888"><BR><BR
clear=all><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888">--<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888">Director, Fixed
Wing Flight Training<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #888888">Santa Clara
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Santa
Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Director,
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