[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Fri Apr 11 10:02:39 AKDT 2014

No worries…it was on the same subject line so it doesn’t count.

Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Direct: 440.229.2502 |  Fax: 440.684.3102
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

[cid:image001.png at 01CE481F.E6A56C70]

On Apr 11, 2014, at 1:49 PM, Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com<mailto:vanputter at gmail.com>> wrote:

+1.

However, now I'm worried that I agreed with Mark Atwood twice in the same week.

Ron

On Apr 11, 2014, at 12:38 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:

Only my opinion, but I think we need to judge “as intended” simply because anything else will be far too difficult to execute consistently.  As you mentioned, maneuvers like a cuban eight, 4-point, figure M, etc, all have well defined INTENDED centers which make judging center fairly easy, leaving more mental horsepower to evaluate the rest of the maneuver.  If we have to start waiting until the completion of the presented maneuver to try (and Try is a key word since truly evaluating center on a long, large, poorly performed maneuver is subjective at best) then I think we’ll be significantly lowering our quality of judging.

My $0.02

Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Direct: 440.229.2502 |  Fax: 440.684.3102
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>

<image001.png>

On Apr 11, 2014, at 12:08 PM, J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net<mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Since this was attached to my earlier post I’ll respond.

The question I’m left with is:

Is center based on correct geometry or geometry that is - or - can be flown incorrectly, such as a non vertical extending the side of the maneuver beyond the finish of the ¼ R – or – a ¾ loop that has the correct R from a starting point offset towards center forcing the center of the ¾ loop off center – or – a ¾ loop with a larger radius also off center relative to the start of the ¼ R.
Are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?

If “As Intended”; apply the same concept to other maneuvers such as a Cuban eight. If the crossover is on center, is the maneuver centered even thought it may have un-equal ¾ loops elongating one side?

Again are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:40 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

I don’t understand what the problem is with this maneuver.  The Powerpoint for F-15 is incorrect on the NSRCA site.  Peter Uhlig did the original and this is what he originally drew.  I contacted Michael Ramel about this and Peter updated the presentation.  It is really simple.  The entry loop starts at center, the upline is then displaced from center, the upper loop is centered and the integrated roll is centered on the pole.  That means the model comes through center level upright.  Entry and exit lines have no bearing on the centering of the loop, the main criteria is the entry radius defines the size of the loop on top.  Peter’s latest Powerpoint shows this clearly and has been confirmed by the F3A chairman.

Don

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:25 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

I’m one of the folks that sit in the chair and judge this stuff.
Referencing - 2014 FAI Sporting Code - F3 Aerobatics.pdf  - under lines 5B.8.3, entry and exit lines need to be horizontal and of recognizable length. I understand this to mean, not equal in length and no specific length. Both lines could be within the boundary of the geometry.
Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R, but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal.
A maneuver having un-equal radiuses would center the maneuver to no predefined point which will be somewhere within the 3/4 loop.
A larger radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the entrance side where a smaller radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the exit side neither of which will be directly above the start of the ¼ loop. Understanding this, there can be no pre-stated center reference.
Jim Hiller
Spokane

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jas S
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:54 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

If there was a roll on the exit, then I think we would be in the 'somewhere' center right?

Time for dinner, need to replenish...

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>> wrote:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9-centerline-question.html
Post #8

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh yea, forgot about those lol. Being in a straight line, the 'line' (whole maneuver) is centered with those.

Someone posted a drawing of the 9 on RCU, and while the center is the whole maneuver works, isn't it going to be the center of the loops/roll when done correctly?

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>> wrote:
So in years past we’ve had a 1 ½ snap roll followed by a 2 ½ rolls in the opposite direction.  Where is the center on that maneuver?  The center is the mid-point between the start and finish of the maneuver (including straight line in and straight line out).  There is no definitive middle to these types of maneuvers and so a statement that it is “somewhere in between the 2 ½ rolls” would be accurate as well – it depends on how fast/slow those rolls were done.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Derek,
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using a better word than "somewhere".
John
On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Anthony,

This shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will fly it differently.

Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight from the F3 sub-committee chair…

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code show the upline being centered.

A bit confusing,

Anthony
________________________________
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
From: joncarter60 at comcast.net<mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judging question? Just let me know.

Thanks,

Jon Carter
Judging Committee Chairman

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

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